39
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 01:01 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
That's a FACT: All governments spy on each other. We know for a fact that Israel spies on the US; there's proof of that. To think otherwise is to believe in santa clause (unreal).

There's an article in yesterday's newspaper about our allies getting upset and complaining about the US intelligence gathering. WHAT? .

TNCFS

Quote:
Friday, 06 April 2012 10:30
Spying on the Spies: Outsourcing intelligence-gathering to the Israelis imperils national security
Written by Justin Raimondo
font size Print Email

AntiWar - Stewart Nozette, a brilliant scientist whose work was instrumental in advancing the US space program, was convicted last year of attempting to spy on behalf of Israel, and this month was sentenced to 13 years in prison and a substantial fine. Under investigation for over-charging the government for various services performed by his nonprofit, Nozette was found to be in possession of classified documents – and, in the course of their inquiry, FBI agents discovered an email written by him threatening to turn over classified information to the Israelis if the government pursued its fraud case.

In the indictment [.pdf], prosecutors went out of their way to absolve the Israeli government of any fault, since agents had snared their prey by conducting a sting operation. Nozette was approached by an FBI agent who claimed to be a Mossad agent, and asked to hand over classified documents in return for money. As the prosecutors put it: “The indictment does not allege that the government of Israel or anyone acting on its behalf committed any offense under U.S. laws in this case.”

However, Nozette worked as a consultant for Israel Aerospace Industries, an Israeli government-funded company with strong links to Israeli intelligence, from 1989 to 2009, during which time he had a “Q” security clearance which gave him access to our most closely guarded secrets. It’s worth noting that when the FBI agent masquerading as an Israeli intelligence operative first approached Nozette with the proposal that he work for the Mossad, the sneaky space scientist replied: “I thought I was working for you already,” and said he had handed over sensitive intelligence to the Israelis in the past.

Israeli spying in the US is a topic the government, and the news media, don’t like to talk about, and yet the GAO has stated [.pdf] the Israelis run the “most aggressive espionage operation against the United States of any US ally” and that “classified military information and sensitive military technologies are high-priority targets for the intelligence agencies of this country.”
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 02:04 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
You aren't paying attention to what is actually happening.



On the contrary, I'm hypotized by the Snowden happenings, which is second only in importance to the happenings in Egypt...there has been a military coup and Morsi is no longer in power. But back to the subject at hand......

Engineer wrote:
Quote:
Snowden didn't have any issues with the government monitoring "those who wish to harm us". He disclosed that the government was also spying on Americans in mass, monitoring emails and internet traffic and collecting information about phone calls. The NSA is supposed to submit to Congressional oversight on this, but the director of the NSA directly lied to Congress about the scope of NSA monitoring of citizens. Without Snowden's revelations, Congress would never have known the the NSA was lying. Concerning the CIA, the CIA is banned from spying inside the US. Regarding US agents overseas, Snowden has said that he carefully screened the data to ensure he did not do that and if he had, you can be sure the government would be letting the world know about it like they did with Manning.


"Spying on Americans en masse," to which I say it doesn't matter to me; whatever it takes to safeguard America is fine with me. Look, there is no such thing as a perfect government; heck, there are cameras on every street corner in the US to observe cars, when we go to the ATM, when shopping at malls, inside local stores, etc....the US were observing Americans during the Boston Marathon bombings. Even using my computer there are "cookies" that observe my online buying habits. The spying on Americans which came into being under the Bush/Cheney administration I felt was wrong and was highly critical and indeed incensed. Since 9/11 (I'm a New Yorker, and not too far away from the actual site of the former World Trade Center), the spying, I believe, has been expanded to cover foreign calls as well. If the US government's monitoring all calls will prevent another 9/11, that is OK with me.

Engineer, my husband and I are two Americans who simply do not care if we are spied on; we don't have anything to hide....we are transparent. Don't think for one moment I'm unable to comprehend others feeling the opposite and or your contrary reaction to such spying. With respect to Edward Snowden, I feel strongly that one should never betray one's country by revealing classified information regardless how innocent. Snowden was in a special position to learn much and then he took this information and went internationally. In my opinion, Snowden committed a crime and now he's running. If he's so confident he did nothing wrong why is he running?! Is he afraid of our government's reaction? LOL! He damn well should be. He revealed to other countries that the US was spying on them; to me, that's a traitor.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 02:35 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Snowden committed treason, and should pay the price for it. He promised in writing to keep information he learns in his job confidential. He lied, and talked to our enemies. That's treason.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 02:39 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:

Quote:
You aren't paying attention to what is actually happening.



On the contrary, I'm hypotized by the Snowden happenings, which is second only in importance to the happenings in Egypt...there has been a military coup and Morsi is no longer in power. But back to the subject at hand......

Engineer wrote:
Quote:
Snowden didn't have any issues with the government monitoring "those who wish to harm us". He disclosed that the government was also spying on Americans in mass, monitoring emails and internet traffic and collecting information about phone calls. The NSA is supposed to submit to Congressional oversight on this, but the director of the NSA directly lied to Congress about the scope of NSA monitoring of citizens. Without Snowden's revelations, Congress would never have known the the NSA was lying. Concerning the CIA, the CIA is banned from spying inside the US. Regarding US agents overseas, Snowden has said that he carefully screened the data to ensure he did not do that and if he had, you can be sure the government would be letting the world know about it like they did with Manning.


"Spying on Americans en masse," to which I say it doesn't matter to me; whatever it takes to safeguard America is fine with me. Look, there is no such thing as a perfect government; heck, there are cameras on every street corner in the US to observe cars, when we go to the ATM, when shopping at malls, inside local stores, etc....the US were observing Americans during the Boston Marathon bombings. Even using my computer there are "cookies" that observe my online buying habits. The spying on Americans which came into being under the Bush/Cheney administration I felt was wrong and was highly critical and indeed incensed. Since 9/11 (I'm a New Yorker, and not too far away from the actual site of the former World Trade Center), the spying, I believe, has been expanded to cover foreign calls as well. If the US government's monitoring all calls will prevent another 9/11, that is OK with me.

Engineer, my husband and I are two Americans who simply do not care if we are spied on; we don't have anything to hide....we are transparent. Don't think for one moment I'm unable to comprehend others feeling the opposite and or your contrary reaction to such spying. With respect to Edward Snowden, I feel strongly that one should never betray one's country by revealing classified information regardless how innocent. Snowden was in a special position to learn much and then he took this information and went internationally. In my opinion, Snowden committed a crime and now he's running. If he's so confident he did nothing wrong why is he running?! Is he afraid of our government's reaction? LOL! He damn well should be. He revealed to other countries that the US was spying on them; to me, that's a traitor.


Bingo!

Anyone suggesting he is a hero is, in my opinion, WAY off base.

In any case, whether one feels he is a hero or a traitor...he is a citizen and he is entitled to a fair trial.

His father claims America has made him "a stateless person."

He is not a stateless person at all...and America is willing to give him refuge...and a fair trial of his peers.

Come back, Edward.
Baldimo
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 02:53 pm
Interesting to read all the posts. My question to the people calling for his head. Weren't you the same people who in the 2000's were all pissed off about the Patriot Act, and how it was an intrusion into the lives of Americans?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 02:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

In any case, whether one feels he is a hero or a traitor...he is a citizen and he is entitled to a fair trial.


Fine with me, too.

But there's "the other side" as well. Wink
I've posted that already on the other thread and repeat it here again:
Walter Hinteler wrote:


The German criminal code wrote:
Section 202a
Data espionage

(1) Whosoever unlawfully obtains data for himself or another that were not intended for him and were especially protected against unauthorised access, if he has circumvented the protection, shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine.

(2) Within the meaning of subsection (1) above data shall only be those stored or transmitted electronically or magnetically or otherwise in a manner not immediately perceivable.

(Section 202b Phishing)

Section 202c
Acts preparatory to data espionage and phishing

(1) Whosoever prepares the commission of an offence under section 202a or section 202b by producing, acquiring for himself or another, selling, supplying to another, disseminating or making otherwise accessible

1. passwords or other security codes enabling access to data (section 202a(2)), or

2. software for the purpose of the commission of such an offence,

shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding one year or a fine.

(2) Section 149(2) and (3) shall apply mutatis mutandis.

0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 02:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

Snowden committed treason, and should pay the price for it. He promised in writing to keep information he learns in his job confidential. He lied, and talked to our enemies. That's treason.


"Treason" means: "the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery."

Gotta agree with you, CI. Edward Snowden took an oath! The sneak was entrusted with classified information and his thanks to the US government was an act of TREACHERY.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 02:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Snowden committed treason, and should pay the price for it. He promised in writing to keep information he learns in his job confidential. He lied, and talked to our enemies. That's treason.
Well, some of those enemies were formerly called "allies", like a couple of European countries, the EU ...
Moment-in-Time
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 03:00 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

Anyone suggesting he is a hero is, in my opinion, WAY off base.

In any case, whether one feels he is a hero or a traitor...he is a citizen and he is entitled to a fair trial.

His father claims America has made him "a stateless person."

He is not a stateless person at all...and America is willing to give him refuge...and a fair trial of his peers.

Come back, Edward.


Indeed, "Come back, Edward." You will get a fair trial, that's for sure.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 03:02 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I didn't mention our allies, because it's a proven fact that our allies also performs intelligence against us, and that has never been a "BIG DEAL" in the past.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 03:05 pm
I still haven't landed on my feet on all this, reading as I am in desultory fashion many pros and cons, considering and reconsidering my own biases. I've close or equal to Engineer's take on all this but I get other points of view.

My underlying impression is that many many (as a friend used to say for emphasis) people already knew this stuff, and that it is good the rest of us talk about it. It is our government and its contractors in action, and we get to question, not least because of some woeful history.

I take Snowden in many ways, including a probable self important person (oh, like many of us worth our salt or pepper), but I'm not saying traitor as he appears to have been careful not to go that route, by his lights.

I think the failure of possible support from countries far and wide is a) comedic on a world scale, and b) tragic; c) I get that some of those places don't like the connection with Assange, which I get, but I don't think that is their primo reason; and d) expected.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 03:06 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:

Quote:

Anyone suggesting he is a hero is, in my opinion, WAY off base.

In any case, whether one feels he is a hero or a traitor...he is a citizen and he is entitled to a fair trial.

His father claims America has made him "a stateless person."

He is not a stateless person at all...and America is willing to give him refuge...and a fair trial of his peers.

Come back, Edward.


Indeed, "Come back, Edward." You will get a fair trial, that's for sure.


There are people...the ones who consider him a hero and who are offering him as a contender for the Nobel Peace Prize...who most assuredly do not want him to get a fair trial.

They want an unfair one...one that will exonerate him and proclaim him to be the hero their distorted view of this event sees him to be.

He can get a fair trial here. I imagine the defense representation will be one of the finest ever assembled.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 03:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I didn't mention our allies, because it's a proven fact that our allies also performs intelligence against us, and that has never been a "BIG DEAL" in the past.
Really? "We" placed bugs in US-embassies and state departments and read/listened nearly all your emails, internet traffic and phone calls?
And that has never been a big deal?

Could well be so, since it really doesn't seem to have been a topic - like it is now the other way around.
However, the US didn't refer to it .... even not now.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 03:17 pm
From Wiki.
Quote:
United States[edit]
Federal[edit]
To avoid the abuses of the English law (including executions by Henry VIII of those who criticized his repeated marriages), treason was specifically defined in the United States Constitution, the only crime so defined. Article III Section 3 delineates treason as follows:

Iva Toguri, known as Tokyo Rose, and Tomoya Kawakita were two Japanese Americans who were tried for treason after World War II.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
However, Congress has, at times, passed statutes creating related offenses that punish conduct which undermines the government or the national security, such as sedition in the 1798 Alien and Sedition Acts, or espionage and sedition in the 1917 Espionage Act, which do not require the testimony of two witnesses and have a much broader definition than Article Three treason. For example, some well-known spies have been convicted of espionage rather than treason.
The Constitution does not itself create the offense; it only restricts the definition (the first paragraph), permits Congress to create the offense, and restricts any punishment for treason to only the convicted (the second paragraph). The crime is prohibited by legislation passed by Congress. Therefore the United States Code at 18 U.S.C. § 2381 states "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." The requirement of testimony of two witnesses was inherited from the British Treason Act 1695.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 03:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Again from Wiki.
Quote:
Article 3, section 3, clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution specifies that the giving of aid and comfort to the enemy is an element in the crime of Treason. Aid and comfort may consist of substantial assistance or the mere attempt to provide some support; actual help or the success of the enterprise is not relevant.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 03:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

Quote:
Article 3, section 3, clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution specifies that the giving of aid and comfort to the enemy is an element in the crime of Treason. Aid and comfort may consist of substantial assistance or the mere attempt to provide some support; actual help or the success of the enterprise is not relevant.


Snowden exposed how the US was monitoring foreign calls to and from the US and the Terrorists will now change their tactics in order to escape surveillance by the US. Thanks, Edward Snowden. With friends like you......
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 03:34 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:

Snowden exposed how the US was monitoring foreign calls to and from the US and the Terrorists will now change their tactics in order to escape surveillance by the US. Thanks, Edward Snowden. With friends like you......
Not only that. Due to what he leaked, American surveillance may kill the US-EU free-trade talks ... besides some severe diplomatic disturbances between the US and the EU and a couple of European countries.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 03:56 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
True; Snowden didn't understand how much damage he has done on international relations, and how terrorists will now use other means of communication.

Ignorance of what harm will develop doesn't pardon his treason.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 04:04 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:

Not only that. Due to what he leaked, American surveillance may kill the US-EU free-trade talks ... besides some severe diplomatic disturbances between the US and the EU and a couple of European countries.


True, but let's face reality, US-EU trade will not suffer too much; we're a global community and Snowden is simply not that important. Ostensibly these countries might grumble but each country has spied on other countries, that's the name of the game. It's just that Edward Snowden sticks out blabbing US secrets and some of these countries feel bound to speak out against the US cloak-and-dagger activities. I believe it will take more than an EDWARD SNOWDEN to bring about a permanent break.....Look how congenial Putin was; he said "Snowden could remain in Russia if he promised to stop harming our American partners." This ripple with our allies is not long lasting. Snowden's real damage to the US government and the American people were, imo, alerting the terrorists how they were being spied on.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 04:14 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
<b>Snowden's real damage to the US government and the American people were, imo, alerting the terrorists how they were being spied on. </b>

Definitely. People argue that terrorists already know this stuff and are avoiding using communications devices that can be monitored...but THIS INFORMATION is of value to them.

Snowden is not a hero. He may not be a traitor; a trial is needed to determine that...and he may not even be prosecuted with that as a charge. But he did break his oaths and the law...and should be tried.

If the United States were to just let this go...as some want the government to do...we would be committing national suicide.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
GAFFNEY: Whose side is Obama on? - Discussion by gungasnake
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Snowdon is a dummy
  3. » Page 2
Copyright © 2018 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 09/24/2018 at 11:00:52