Snowdon is a dummy

@Moment-in-Time,

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and most of the congress is behind this, despite what they say publicly. They believe the protection of the US from terrorists is paramount.

To say nothing of the intelligence agencies being in a position to blackmail a large percent of them if need be or at least have them in fear of that happening as congressmen used to be in fear of Hoover and his secret files.

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Cognitive science research has demonstrated that when people hold an entrenched position and are presented with information/facts which contradict that position, they only become more firmly convinced that they are right (see Drew Weston's The Political Brain). Rather depressing, but it seems this is the way we are.

So this is all getting a tad silly. You folks ought to stop and talk about other stuff.

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The retired former president of our Federal Constitutional Court Papier again stated (in an interview, published in today's print edition of the Süddeutsche Zeitung) that much of the BND's spying is unconstitutional (our constitution).
And that of personal data by/from the BNDwith foreign services that obtain their information largely with methods which do not meet the minimum standards of the German and European fundamental rights is at least constitutionally doubtful.

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@blatham,

This isn't just about Snowden it's about America losing its dominance in the world. America has pulled out all the stops to get Snowden, including the downing of a presidential plane, but he's still at liberty. Not only that, the documents he released are in the hands of a foreign newspaper (The Guardian.) Most of this is them railing against a new feeling of impotence, which they need to get used to, because the days of America being able to go it alone, and the rest of the World quietly acquiescing, are long gone.

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@Olivier5,

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I consider a punk anyone who is more concerned about the damage to the US international image brought by Snowden, than about the dangers to the US democracy that Snowden is trying to inform us about.

And this is a reflection of the depth of your mind. What's in a name, Oliver5? Your strong desire to try and demonize your opponent? BTW, the noun, "punk" denotes a worthless person. Americans who are anti-Snowden are concerned with his betrayal of the trust the American government placed in him. He stabbed America in the back. The verb "betray" means treachery or disloyalty, and it can also mean a host of other Synonyms. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/betrayed)

The awareness that Snowden, instead of going to his superiors here in the US to air his grievances chose to go to Hong Kong is difficult for me to grasp....he got stranded in Moscow's Sheremetyevo International Airport when his efforts to transit to a South American country such as Ecuador, Bolivia or Venezuela failed. But supposing you explain to me why what happens here in America so concerns you? One would think it's your country. You seem to passionately despise Americans who are against Snowden (not that I care one iota, but I'm a questioning individual). You do realize there are those who feel the same way I do...they are super loyal to their country, very defensive when it comes to the land of their birth and will fight anyone who try to harm her. The US image has been tarnished many times, and the most blatant of all was the illegal invasion into Iraq. That was indeed painful and we are still living with the aftermath of the Bush/Cheney rogue administration; over 4,500 US military, not including the British losses and the untold number of dead Iraqis, those displaced. So you see, Oliver5, I do not have my head in the sand....I'm possibly more aware of the internal strife in America than you because that's one of my prime interests, domestic and foreign politics.

I've exhausted this tit-for-tat with you, and you know from the Yahoo boards my patience is severely limited as boredom sets in.

Have a good one; I have a hectic day ahead of me.

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Can someone on the anti-Snowden side please clarify if they are happy with their' Secuity Services carrying out mass-surveillance on their own citizens? Is this not the antithesis of what true lovers of democracy would wish for their country?

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@lmur,

MoT wrote:

But supposing you explain to me why what happens here in America so concerns you? One would think it's your country.

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@Walter Hinteler,

"

Walter Hinteler wrote:

The retired former president of our Federal Constitutional Court Papier again stated (in an interview, published in today's print edition of the Süddeutsche Zeitung) that much of the BND's spying is unconstitutional (our constitution).
And that of personal data by/from the BNDwith foreign services that obtain their information largely with methods which do not meet the minimum standards of the German and European fundamental rights is at least constitutionally doubtful.

So tell us, Walter...in your Constitution, is "the retired former president of your Federal Constitutional Court Papier" who is assigned responsibility for determining whether or not something done in your country by its government...is constitutional or not?

I know for a fact that ci is not entrusted with that responsibility over here in the United States for our constitutionality questions...nor is anyone else here in A2K. The Supreme Court makes those determination here...which, of course, is what I have been saying all along.

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@lmur,

lmur wrote:

Can someone on the anti-Snowden side please clarify if they are happy with their' Secuity Services carrying out mass-surveillance on their own citizens? Is this not the antithesis of what true lovers of democracy would wish for their country?

I am not on the anti-Snowden side (I strongly advocate for his chance to get a fair trial on the charges that have been brought against him)...but I have no problem with the so-called "mass surveillance" that has been carried out.

We here in America elect our government...allow the government to set into motion services...and allow the services to do what is needed to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.

We also have in place checks and balances to determine if the government is exceeding its authority.

Nothing that the NSA has done so far has been found to be unconstitutional by the authority having that power.

No...this is NOT the antithesis of what true lovers of democracy would wish for this country. It is a bit much...and I wish that the political and psychological climate of the world would allow for much less...but we have elected individuals and put checks and balances in place to determine whether it is necessary or not.

True lovers of democracy would allow that process to take place...and would not allow someone like Edward Snowden to determine on his own that classified government documents should be stolen and released to the public.

Don't you think that?

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Izzy pretty much caught the spirit of this entire discussion.

People from outside the United States reveling in the US discomfort...and citizens of the US helping them feel good about themselves by downing the US.

Hey, people did that against Rome when it was a power...against England when it was.

The way it probably will always be.

Fine...let 'em.

But there will be some of us who call the nonsense to their attention.

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@Frank Apisa,

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I care!

Has there been a law passed that my reasons have to pass muster with YOU???

I am just not convinced that you are saying the truth about your motivations. There's no reason to care for one particular case of document theft and not for the scores of other leaks that have marked the US political life since the Watergate scandal... What's so special about Snowden? Did you write hundreds of letters about the Watergate scandal on how "Deep Throat" deserved a fair trial???

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@RABEL222,

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Russia and China are using shovels like Snowden and his kind to dig democracys grave. And not just the U S of A's democracy. I wonder what kinds of reward he got from those foreign "democracies" to spy for them and pretend to be a patriot by releasing this so called evidence. Someday we may find out that patriot was a paid spy. Especially Russia is happy as hell to see dissention between allies as they take over parts of Europe while we fight each over trifles.

Well, don't come crying once Big Brother has taken over your democracy... and don't cry when Russia can play with NATO's divisions. You shouldn't have spied on Merkel if you valued her support.

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@Moment-in-Time,

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They believe the protection of the US from terrorists is paramount.

Except of course the NSA has never been able to show any case in which they help fend off a terrorist threat. But there are many cases where they spied on allies, private firms such as Siemens or Airbus, UNICEF and the likes... The anti-terrorism justification is just a front.

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@BillRM,

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Snowden is a damn hero with every bit of the standing of MLK.

Agreed. He was faced with different circumstances, and perhaps trusted the US judiciary less than MLK. With good reasons.

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@Olivier5,

It was not one document. More like hundreds of thousands, some of which put people at risk, such as troops and diplomats.

NSA chief says Snowden leaked up to 200,000 secret documents

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@revelette2,

They don't even know what he leaked. The accusation that the leak put people at risk is phony too, unsubstantiated. that's what they always say, e.g. they said the same last time with the wikileaks diplomatic cables.

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@Olivier5,

You don't know what you are talking about, just repeating stuff you hear.

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@revelette2,

Nope, that's what YOU do. Prove it to me Rev, prove that any life has been endangered by Snowden. You can't. You're just repeating what your handlers are telling you to believe.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

So tell us, Walter...in your Constitution, is "the retired former president of your Federal Constitutional Court Papier" who is assigned responsibility for determining whether or not something done in your country by its government...is constitutional or not?

Retired is retired (The judges of the Federal Constitutional Court are elected for a period of twelve years and can't be re-elected.)
Papier is one of the best known scholars of constitutional law. He is co-publisher and author of the "Maunz/Dürig", a comment valid as standard work to the Basic Law , and has witnessed as legal expert a few weeks ago to the NSA-committee.

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@Frank Apisa,

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People from outside the United States reveling in the US discomfort...and citizens of the US helping them feel good about themselves by downing the US.

And good American boys and girls getting pissed at the messenger for telling them what they don't want to know about their country... Yep, the whole debate is about the tarnished US image abroad and at home... A very futile issue to concern oneself with.

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Snowdon is a dummy

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