64
   

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

 
 
izzythepush
 
  -2  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 07:34 am
@spendius,
I'm not going to agree with you there except for Sky Arts. The News channel isn't that good, and the sports channel has priced most fans out of the game, we're now forced to pay for something we used to be able to see for free on the BBC.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 07:37 am
This was in the local paper today--it provides a little perspective to the 2nd Amendment apart from the NRA.

COMMUNITY COMMENT: History of the right to bear arms rests on state, federal roles in war

Quote:
I am retired, a veteran with two tours in Vietnam and a short 1965 tour in the Dominican Republic attached to the 82nd Airborne Division expeditionary force. My father was an ardent hunter who owned an 1896 octagonal, long-barrel, lever-action, 30/30 Winchester; a double-barrel, 12-gauge shotgun; and, a 6-shot, .22-caliber revolver. Hunting and fishing were his passion.

My twin brother and I received a single-shot .22-caliber rifle for Christmas when we were 12 years old. Although I don't now see a need to own a weapon, much of my life has been linked to weapons. I'm not opposed to gun ownership; but, the reasons the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution became part of our "Bill of Rights" has very little relevance in today's government and society relationship. Before there were amendments to the Constitution; Article I (Congressional Legislative Powers), Section 8, Clause 16 reads "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress".

The 2nd Amendment reads "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The 2nd Amendment was ratified by the states of our founding fathers because there was a widespread fear of federal government control of state militias and the possibility of a permanent, standing federal army. Many felt (with European history as a background) a permanent, standing Army, in time of peace, would be dangerous to liberty and ought to be avoided.

If the federal government had the constitutional authority to organize, arm and discipline state militias (under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 16), the federal government could also choose not to "arm" state militias. Therefore, states could avoid the need for a permanent, standing federal army by having a guarantee that individuals have the right to "keep and bear" arms.

Again, I have no objection to the individual freedom to keep and bear arms. But, today that individual right has nothing to do with states wanting to maintain a strong state militia so that a permanent, standing federal army will not be necessary.

We continue to claim that 2nd Amendment individual "right." But the original reasons for that constitutional guarantee have long been gone.


Now I'm old enough to remember when Boy Scout Rifle Ranges were operated according to NRA 'Range Rules' using WWI surplus single shot 22 bolt action Springfields that still had attached bayonet mounts. I still remember the three cardinal range rules--always beep you barrel pointed downrange, always treat a firearm as if it is loaded, and police your brass.

Rap
BillRM
 
  0  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 07:49 am
@raprap,
http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndpur.html


Original Intent and Purpose of the Second Amendment
Introduction
The Second Amendment:

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.
The original intent and purpose of the Second Amendment was to preserve and guarantee, not grant, the pre-existing right of individuals to keep and bear arms. Although the amendment emphasizes the need for a militia, membership in any militia, let alone a well-regulated one, was not intended to serve as a prerequisite for exercising the right to keep arms.

The Second Amendment preserves and guarantees an individual right for a collective purpose. That does not transform the right into a "collective right." The militia clause was a declaration of purpose, and preserving the people's right to keep and bear arms was the method the framers chose to, in-part, ensure the continuation of a well-regulated militia.

There is no contrary evidence from the writings of the Founding Fathers, early American legal commentators, or pre-twentieth century Supreme Court decisions, indicating that the Second Amendment was intended to apply solely to active militia members.



Evidence of an Individual Right

In his popular edition of Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England (1803), St. George Tucker (see also), a lawyer, Revolutionary War militia officer, legal scholar, and later a U.S. District Court judge (appointed by James Madison in 1813), wrote of the Second Amendment:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, and this without any qualification as to their condition or degree, as is the case in the British government.
In the appendix to the Commentaries, Tucker elaborates further:
This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty... The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Whenever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction. In England, the people have been disarmed, generally, under the specious pretext of preserving the game: a never failing lure to bring over the landed aristocracy to support any measure, under that mask, though calculated for very different purposes. True it is, their bill of rights seems at first view to counteract this policy: but the right of bearing arms is confined to protestants, and the words suitable to their condition and degree, have been interpreted to authorise the prohibition of keeping a gun or other engine for the destruction of game, to any farmer, or inferior tradesman, or other person not qualified to kill game. So that not one man in five hundred can keep a gun in his house without being subject to a penalty.
Not only are Tucker's remarks solid evidence that the militia clause was not intended to restrict the right to keep arms to active militia members, but he speaks of a broad right – Tucker specifically mentions self-defense.
"Because '[g]reat weight has always been attached, and very rightly attached, to contemporaneous exposition,' the Supreme Court has cited Tucker in over forty cases. One can find Tucker in the major cases of virtually every Supreme Court era." (Source: The Second Amendment in the Nineteenth Century)

(William Blackstone was an English jurist who published Commentaries on the Laws of England, in four volumes between 1765 and 1769. Blackstone is credited with laying the foundation of modern English law and certainly influenced the thinking of the American Founders.)

Another jurist contemporaneous to the Founders, William Rawle, authored "A View of the Constitution of the United States of America" (1829). His work was adopted as a constitutional law textbook at West Point and other institutions. In Chapter 10 he describes the scope of the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms:

The prohibition is general. No clause in the constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretence by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both.
This is another quote where it is obvious that "the people" refers to individuals since Rawle writes neither the states nor the national government has legitimate authority to disarm its citizens. This passage also makes it clear ("the prohibition is general") that the militia clause was not intended to restrict the scope of the right.
(In 1791 William Rawle was appointed United States Attorney for Pennsylvania by President George Washington, a post he held for more than eight years.)

Yet another jurist, Justice Story (appointed to the Supreme Court as an Associate Justice by James Madison in 1811), wrote a constitutional commentary in 1833 ("Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States"). Regarding the Second Amendment, he wrote (source):

The next amendment is: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.

As the Tennessee Supreme Court in Andrews v. State (1871) explains, this "passage from Story, shows clearly that this right was intended, as we have maintained in this opinion, and was guaranteed to, and to be exercised and enjoyed by the citizen as such, and not by him as a soldier, or in defense solely of his political rights."
Story adds:

And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights.
Story laments the people's lack of enthusiasm for maintaining a well-regulated militia. However, some anti-gun rights advocates misinterpret this entire passage as being "consistent with the theory that the Second Amendment guarantees a right of the people to be armed only when in service of an organized militia." (See Arms, Anarchy and the Second Amendment for an example of reaching that conclusion by committing a non-sequitur.)
The need for a well-regulated militia and an armed citizenry are not mutually exclusive, nor was the right to have arms considered dependent on membership in an active militia (more on that later). Rather, as illustrated by Tucker, Rawle, and Story, the militia clause and the right to arms were intended to be complementary.

More Evidence Supporting an Individual Right

After James Madison's Bill of Rights was submitted to Congress, Tench Coxe (see also: Tench Coxe and the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, 1787-1823) published his "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution," in the Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 He asserts that it's the people (as individuals) with arms, who serve as the ultimate check on government:

As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.
"A search of the literature of the time reveals that no writer disputed or contradicted Coxe's analysis that what became the Second Amendment protected the right of the people to keep and bear 'their private arms.' The only dispute was over whether a bill of rights was even necessary to protect such fundamental rights." (Halbrook, Stephen P. "The Right of the People or the Power of the State Bearing Arms, Arming Militias, and the Second Amendment". Originally published as 26 Val. U. L.Rev. 131-207, 1991).
Earlier, in The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788, while the states were considering ratification of the Constitution, Tench Coxe wrote:

Who are the militia? are they not ourselves. Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American...The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
The Federalist Papers

Alexander Hamilton in Federalist, No. 29, did not view the right to keep arms as being confined to active militia members:

What plan for the regulation of the militia may be pursued by the national government is impossible to be foreseen...The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution... Little more can reasonably be aimed at with the respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped ; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.
James Madison in Federalist No. 46 wrote:

Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments,to which the people are attached, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.
Here, like Story, Madison is expressing the idea that additional advantages accrue to the people when the citizens' right to arms is enhanced by having an organized and properly directed militia.

The Federalist Papers Continued – "The Original Right of Self-Defense"

The Founders realized insurrections may occur from time to time and it is the militia's duty to suppress them. They also realized that however remote the possibility of usurpation was, the people with their arms, had the right to restore their republican form of government by force, if necessary, as an extreme last resort.

"The original right of self-defense" is not a modern-day concoction. We now examine Hamilton's Federalist No. 28. Hamilton begins:

That there may happen cases in which the national government may be necessitated to resort to force cannot be denied. Our own experience has corroborated the lessons taught by the examples of other nations; that emergencies of this sort will sometimes exist in all societies, however constituted; that seditions and insurrections are, unhappily, maladies as inseparable from the body politic as tumors and eruptions from the natural body; that the idea of governing at all times by the simple force of law (which we have been told is the only admissible principle of republican government) has no place but in the reveries of these political doctors whose sagacity disdains the admonitions of experimental instruction.
Hamilton explains that the national government may occasionally need to quell insurrections and it is certainly justified in doing so.
Hamilton continues:

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.
Hamilton clearly states there exists a right of self-defense against a tyrannical government, and it includes the people with their own arms and adds:
[T]he people, without exaggeration, may be said to be entirely the masters of their own fate. Power being almost always the rival of power, the general government will at all times stand ready to check the usurpations of the state governments, and these will have the same disposition towards the general government. The people by throwing themselves into either scale, will infallibly make it preponderate. If their rights are invaded by either, they can make use of the other as the instrument of redress. How wise will it be in them by cherishing the union to preserve to themselves an advantage which can never be too highly prized!
Thus the militia is the ultimate check against a state or the national government. That is why the founders guaranteed the right to the people as opposed to only active militia members or a state's militia. But of course, via the militia clause, the Second Amendment acknowledges, as well, the right of a state to maintain a militia. (For more on militia see: http://guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html.)

Hamilton concludes, telling us the above scenario is extremely unlikely to occur:


When will the time arrive that the federal government can raise and maintain an army capable of erecting a despotism over the great body of the people of an immense empire, who are in a situation, through the medium of their State governments, to take measures for their own defense, with all the celerity, regularity, and system of independent nations? The apprehension may be considered as a disease, for which there can be found no cure in the resources of argument and reasoning.
Again, it is the recurring theme of the people's right to keep and bear arms as individuals, enhanced by a militia system, that (in part) provides for the "security of a free state."

Connecting the Dots...


"The opinion of the Federalist has always been considered as of great authority. It is a complete commentary on our Constitution, and is appealed to by all parties in the questions to which that instrument has given birth. . . . "
--- The U.S. Supreme Court in Cohens v. Virginia (1821)
Although the Federalist Papers were written prior to the drafting of the Bill of Rights (but after the Constitution was sent to the states for ratification), the passages quoted, above, help explain the relationships that were understood between a well-regulated militia, the people, their governments, and the right to keep and bear arms. The Second Amendment did not declare or establish any new rights or novel principles.

The Purpose of the Militia Clause


"Collective rights theorists argue that addition of the subordinate clause qualifies the rest of the amendment by placing a limitation on the people's right to bear arms. However, if the amendment truly meant what collective rights advocates propose, then the text would read "[a] well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the States to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." However, that is not what the framers of the amendment drafted. The plain language of the amendment, without attenuate inferences therefrom, shows that the function of the subordinate clause was not to qualify the right, but instead to show why it must be protected. The right exists independent of the existence of the militia. If this right were not protected, the existence of the militia, and consequently the security of the state, would be jeopardized." (U.S. v. Emerson, 46 F.Supp.2d 598 (N.D.Tex. 1999))
For more information about justification clauses see: Volokh, Eugene, The Commonplace Second Amendment, (73 NYU L. Rev. 793 (1998)). (See also, Kopel, David, Words of Freedom, National Review Online, May 16, 2001.)

Parting Shots

There are 3 ways the Second Amendment is usually interpreted to deny it was intended to protect an individual right to keep and bear arms:

It protects a state's right to keep and bear arms.
The right is individual, but limited to active militia members because the militia clause narrows the right's scope.
The term "people" refers to the people collectively, rather than the people as individuals.
Yet, three jurists, who were contemporaries of the Founders, and wrote constitutional commentaries, read the Second Amendment as protecting a private, individual right to keep arms. There is no contrary evidence from that period (see Guncite's Is there contrary evidence? and Second Amendment challenge).

Instead of the "right of the people," the Amendment's drafters could have referred to the militia or active militia members, as they did in the Fifth Amendment, had they meant to restrict the right. (Additionally, see GunCite's page here showing evidence that the term, "people," as used in the Bill of Rights, referred to people as individuals.)

It strains credulity to believe the aforementioned three jurists misconstrued the meaning of the Second Amendment.

The only model that comports with all of the evidence from the Founding period is the one interpreting the Second Amendment as protecting an individual right for a collective purpose. The militia clause and the right to keep and bear arms were intended to be complementary.

Perversely, gun rights defenders are accused of creating a Second Amendment myth, when it is some present-day jurists and historians who have failed to give a full account of the historical record.

(The assertion that the Second Amendment was intended to protect an individual right should not be confused with the claim that all gun control is un-constitutional. However, to read why many gun rights advocates oppose most gun controls, today, please see GunCite's, Misrepresenting the Gun Control Debate.)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gun Control Research | GunCite Home
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 08:01 am
@JTT,
Try to understand what Joe Nation tried to get through your skull earlier, JTT. Many of us see that America, like every dominant world power ever to exist on this planet, has exercised its might in ways that are repugnant to decent human beings.

But you present that argument in a way that is so counter-productive, you might as well be arguing that America should commit greater and more numerous atrocities in the future.

I doubt you will ever clean up your act, though, because you seem to be motivated by resentment, jealousy, and fury...rather than reason.

Yours to deal with.
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 09:29 am
Quote:
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.
Correct
Quote:
The original intent and purpose of the Second Amendment was to preserve and guarantee, not grant, the pre-existing right of individuals to keep and bear arms.
Correct
Quote:
Although the amendment emphasizes the need for a militia, membership in any militia, let alone a well-regulated one, was not intended to serve as a prerequisite for exercising the right to keep arms.
Horseshit,
selfish, myopic, unpatriotic horseshit.
What the phrasing does is, in fact, LIMIT the right to bear arms to those who would serve the security of a free state.

Stop putting your thumb over the first words of the 2nd Amendment.

Joe(It reveals the depth of the hypocrisy)Nation

revelette
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 09:32 am
Rather than getting bogged down with endless useless debate about the second amendment, why don't most gun control advocates just concede that we agree people have the right to "bear arms" and go on to what is the real crux of the matter and that is trying to control these weapons which are able to kill and injure so many people quickly. The NRA answer in the past recent interview was basically arm the schools which was totally lame.

Consider Columbine, there was an armed police officer assigned to Columbine on the scene at the time of that tragic event. He was outgunned by the shooter.


Quote:
As Gardner stepped out of his patrol car, Eric Harris turned his attention from shooting into the west doors of the high school to the student parking lot and to the deputy. Gardner, particularly visible in the bright yellow shirt of the community resource officer uniform, was the target of Harris’ bullets. Harris fired about 10 shots from his rifle at Gardner before his gun jammed. Although Gardner’s patrol car was not hit by bullets, two vehicles that he was parked behind were hit by Harris’ gunfire. Investigators later found two bullet holes in each of the cars.

Officer Exchanges Gunfire
Gardner, seeing Harris working with his gun, leaned over the top of the car and fired four shots. He was 60 yards from the gunman. Harris spun hard to the right and Gardner momentarily thought he had hit him. Seconds later, Harris began shooting again at the deputy.

After the exchange of gunfire, Harris ran back into the building. Gardner was able to get on the police radio and called for assistance from other Sheriff’s units. “Shots in the building. I need someone in the south lot with me.”


source

So, is the answer to put trained officers in every single school, college, tech college etc. in the US, train them in high capacity weapon exercises and hope the good guys out shoot the bad guys and no one gets hurts in the crossfire? It will end up being an arms race between the guards and shooters. Not only that, but there is no way we can afford to do it efficiently.
firefly
 
  2  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 09:48 am
@BillRM,
You still haven't answered a question I have asked you several times.

Do you have any interest in reducing the death toll, in this country, that is caused by firearms?

You rather clumsily try to tap dance around the problem of gun violence in this country by dragging in as many irrelevant issues as possible, including your rather morbid preoccupation with other methods of killing people, including children, by methods other than the use of guns. Of course, none of that addresses our country's public health problem with the thousands of senseless and needless deaths, caused by firearms, every year in this country--not just in the more dramatic mass shootings, of which we saw far too many in the past year, but also in the daily shootings which erode our quality of life.

I ask you again...
Do you have any interest in reducing the death toll, in this country, that is caused by firearms?

And, if you do...
Can you offer any solutions or proposals that do involve putting even more guns into private hands?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 09:50 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
"Gun collecting" was one of the three purposes that did not require a further detailed statement was it not?
That's correct.

But I think, you've a very different idea about "gun collecting" to us here.
Here, it means that you collect (intransitive verb, from the Latin colligere) weapons.

They must be kept at one secure place (which is all regulated in various by-laws), the breechblock at a different. (And in Switzerland, you need a new 'allowance', if you want to store them e.g. in your second home in a different canton.)
So, shooting with them is just for show ...
JTT
 
  -1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 10:01 am
@spendius,
Quote:
There are no easy answers.


Yes, there are, Spendi, easy, moral and just. They were laid down at Nuremberg. No one should escape those principles because they have power. And what's so ironic and hypocritical is that those that established those principles only want them used to their own advantage. It's just not the rule of law.

0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 10:03 am
@BillRM,

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the
people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with
arms".

- James Madison



Americans will never give up the right to keep and bear arms
JTT
 
  -1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 10:04 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Your style of invective does not mean that you are the only one who notices the horrors or are the only one they upset. It does alienate some people though.


This is important, that it alienates those who would seek to sweep it all under the rug?

Had Farmer caught himself in that level of hypocrisy [he can and does do that] that Joe was in, you'd have been all over him, six ways from Sunday.

And now you have taken up the broom.
JTT
 
  0  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 10:17 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Try to understand what Joe Nation tried to get through your skull earlier, JTT.


Understand what Joe actually did, Frank. He didn't like his stunning hypocrisy pointed up. He then admitted that he doesn't want to talk about these evil events because "he doesn't like me".

Consider all the dissing that I've put up with on language issues, I haven't held grudges. When people act honestly, they deserve and get respect.

People who act like you, dishonest as all get out, your usual manner, don't deserve respect. You do deserve and get respect when you aren't apisaing.

Quote:
But you present that argument in a way that is so counter-productive, you might as well be arguing that America should commit greater and more numerous atrocities in the future.


That's exactly the childish response that Joe used, Frank. But you know that and still you go on.

Quote:
that America should commit greater and more numerous atrocities in the future


Considering the typically lame responses, the allowances that are given to those who lie outright to attempt to divert attention from what the US has done, and that includes you, Frank, it's pretty damn apparent that people really do not give a ****.

They are very comfortable with the US committing greater and more numerous atrocities, because that's what has happened.
firefly
 
  2  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 10:29 am
@revelette,
Quote:
Rather than getting bogged down with endless useless debate about the second amendment, why don't most gun control advocates just concede that we agree people have the right to "bear arms" and go on to what is the real crux of the matter and that is trying to control these weapons which are able to kill and injure so many people quickly.


I think most gun control advocates in this country do concede the right "to bear arms"--very, very few suggest disarming the civilian population.

What we see in this thread, however, is the gun advocates refusing to discuss any issues of control, or making any attempt to meaningfully address the issue of gun violence in this country--they basically promote their own self-interest, and their personal interest in guns, above all else, including the general welfare.

Whether these few posters represent typical gun owners is open to argument. It is possible that the most vocal of those posting in this thread represent the most narcissistic, ignorant, least civic minded, and most basically irresponsible, gun advocates. If so, they are doing little more than damaging the general perception of gun owners with the image these few project, and consequently they are the worst possible spokespeople for a diverse group of gun enthusiasts that includes many responsible gun owners who do want to discuss controls.

So I don't think the level of discussion coming from the anti-control group in this thread is at all typical of what's likely to occur on a legislative level in this country, where we're likely to hear the more sensible voices of the many responsible gun owners, who don't have their heads in the sand about our country's problem with gun violence, and who want to discuss the measures needed to get some control over it.

But, don't hold your breath if you're waiting to hear a balanced approach to gun control coming from those gun advocates/NRA propaganda mouthpieces posting in this thread.
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 11:46 am
@JTT,
Quote:
And now you have taken up the broom.


I'm not taking up the broom JT. One rendition is sufficient for me. There was a lot of noise here when it was just suspected that a US rendition flight had re-fuelled at a British base.

But this is what "Nation" means. The UN was set up for no other reason than to defuse, or try to defuse, nationalism. The USA was set up for the same reason. And it took a ghastly civil war to get it done. When Mr Obama says "let's get it done" you should titter in embarrassment.

So the reason for the EEC. Or the United Nations of Europe as some call it.

The Church rose to prominence to defuse warring kings and whatnot.

I sympathise with your stance. And I have signified that before. So why do you say I have taken up the broom? If you alienate people enough there are no ears to hear you.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 11:47 am
@JTT,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5215312)
Quote:
Try to understand what Joe Nation tried to get through your skull earlier, JTT.


Understand what Joe actually did, Frank. He didn't like his stunning hypocrisy pointed up. He then admitted that he doesn't want to talk about these evil events because "he doesn't like me".

Consider all the dissing that I've put up with on language issues, I haven't held grudges. When people act honestly, they deserve and get respect.

People who act like you, dishonest as all get out, your usual manner, don't deserve respect. You do deserve and get respect when you aren't apisaing.

Quote:
But you present that argument in a way that is so counter-productive, you might as well be arguing that America should commit greater and more numerous atrocities in the future.


That's exactly the childish response that Joe used, Frank. But you know that and still you go on.

Quote:
that America should commit greater and more numerous atrocities in the future


Considering the typically lame responses, the allowances that are given to those who lie outright to attempt to divert attention from what the US has done, and that includes you, Frank, it's pretty damn apparent that people really do not give a ****.

They are very comfortable with the US committing greater and more numerous atrocities, because that's what has happened.


Actually, JTT, you do more to alienate people who want America to stop bullying than most people commenting on the issue. You are out of control...which makes the many insults you send my way all the more easy to laugh at.

Keep on raging...but understand that even people who agree with the core of your sentiments are turned off by your nonsense...and I suspect many question their position after listening to you pervert it.
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 11:50 am
@firefly,
Quote:
I think most gun control advocates in this country do concede the right "to bear arms"--very, very few suggest disarming the civilian population.


In which case the majority are wasting their breath. Or is wasting its breath.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 12:08 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Actually, JTT, you do more to alienate people who want America to stop bullying than most people commenting on the issue.


Those truths are what alienates people, Frank. Look at Robert's thread, "How many people has the US killed in your lifetime". He asked a straightforward question and all he got was y'all stumbling all over yourselves trying to avoid any such discussion. [CJ and MsO were honest].

Quote:
You are out of control...which makes the many insults you send my way all the more easy to laugh at.


You're apisaing again, Frank. You do that when you are presented with uncomfortable truths. You got caught out just a few days ago, but I see that you have regained a semblance of your former bluster.

Quote:
Keep on raging...but understand that even people who agree with the core of your sentiments are turned off by your nonsense...and I suspect many question their position after listening to you pervert it.


Notice that you cowards don't have any problem directly addressing Hawkeye, gunga, BillRm, ... . It's not the messenger, Frank, it's the facts that scare y'all silly.
JTT
 
  0  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 12:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
"As it happens, JTT is right about most of the things past US administrations have done. They're not imagined."

--MontereyJack

Post: # 5,211,679

http://able2know.org/topic/178031-1#bottom

==============

If we take this at face value, Frank, then you really have to ask yourself why no one wants to discuss these issues.

Part of your fundamental dishonesty is how you completely avoided what I directed to you.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 12:39 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5215491)
Quote:
Actually, JTT, you do more to alienate people who want America to stop bullying than most people commenting on the issue.


Those truths are what alienates people, Frank. Look at Robert's thread, "How many people has the US killed in your lifetime". He asked a straightforward question and all he got was y'all stumbling all over yourselves trying to avoid any such discussion. [CJ and MsO were honest].


I don't do stumbling. I answer the way I feel...and I see no problem with that. Like many Americans, I do wish we would do less throwing of our weight around, but since every major power seems to have done that, I suspect it is hard wired and thoughts about it changing appreciably are little more than wishful thinking.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You are out of control...which makes the many insults you send my way all the more easy to laugh at.



You're apisaing again, Frank. You do that when you are presented with uncomfortable truths. You got caught out just a few days ago, but I see that you have regained a semblance of your former bluster.


Not sure what you see as "bluster", but I suspect that is something that just came to mind, so you thought you would use it. Also not sure what you suppose I "got caught out" just a few days ago...but I suspect that is simply a product of your imagination and out-of-control indignation.



Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Keep on raging...but understand that even people who agree with the core of your sentiments are turned off by your nonsense...and I suspect many question their position after listening to you pervert it.


Notice that you cowards don't have any problem directly addressing Hawkeye, gunga, BillRm...


Or you, JTT. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with addressing you directly also. What makes you think I am a coward...or that I am unwilling to address you just as I do Hawk, Gunga, or Bill?

If you truly think that is the case...you are living a fantasy world.



Quote:
... . It's not the messenger, Frank, it's the facts that scare y'all silly.


I am not "scared" of you at all, JTT. You are more likely to make me laugh than to quake...so you are indulging in self-flattery to suppose otherwise. And I do not take issue with most of your "facts." As we have been trying to get through to you...we are arguing with your presentation.

Jeez!
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2013 12:40 pm
@JTT,
Learn to read with comprehension, JTT...and you will see that I...and others are not arguing with your facts!!!!

It is your presentation that we are discussing.

There is no dishonesty in any of this except in your mind.
0 Replies
 
 

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