Prostitution, or good sense?

Forums: Prostitution, Sex, Chai Wants Money, Social Versus Business
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I started thinking about this after picking up a National Geographic, and opening to a random page.

The picture showed a 32 year old woman, in her legal one woman brothel in Hong Kong. The caption noted that in 2 years she's saved enough to invest in real estate.

My mind wandered off at that point, thinking of opportunities.
I started wondering how men would (in general) to various scenerios, so figured I'd start a discussion here.

Although of course men meet women and ask them out with the purpose of getting to know them, in the hopes/expectations that they will get to know each, appreciate each other, and thinking it would be nice if a relationship developes.

However, many times the man may think the woman nice, is attracted to her, but, not saying all he's thinking about is sex (maybe he is though) he's not thinking much beyond going out, having some laughs, and ending the evening in bed. Maybe he's taken her out already, and is hoping for sex on the 2nd date, or had sex on the first, and is going on the 2nd for basically more of the same, with someone that he finds pleasant enough to be with.

So, what if the woman, upon meeting the man, thinks he's ok, attractive enough to her that sex would be feasible, but examines it more. She picks up on the vibes that this is not going to be some soul mate thing, but more of a going out, then mutual sex.
Realizing the guy, in the normal scheme of things would be dropping a good amount of money on a first date for dinner/movie/clubbing whatever else, why not just agree "Give me that money, we'll have good sex and we both have benefited."

Maybe it's after the first date, the woman isn't that into his personality, but realizes he's wanting the sex. The woman ascertained he's not dangerous, she's already been out with him, she feels safe around him. Why not just get what he was going to spend anyway, and save him the time and get to the end of the evening upfront?

For men, would it be more about the chase, being seen by others with the woman, etc?
Question for the guys. Would you appreciate the candor of a nice woman saying "don't waste your money on flowers and dinner, just give it to me in cash. Then, give it to me."

I'm not talking about a woman who decides to pick up prostitution as a full time profession. More of someone taking advantage of an opportunity, figuring "I was gonna have sex with him anyway, why not just take what he was going to spend on me anyway, in the form of cash?"

Thoughts?

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

Would you appreciate the candor of a nice woman saying "don't waste your money on flowers and dinner, just give it to me in cash. Then, give it to me."

That would definately put limits on any future potential. Some might think that were a good thing.

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@chai2,

Well thank my Lucky Luciano stars this never happened to me. I have never gone anywhere with a woman with hopes of having sex, so I've never had to deal with such a bitter disappointment if she'd declined.

Nope, I've met many women and gone to dinner with them or to a movie, never once had dreams of it leading anywhere. Does that make me queer?

Several years ago I did go and see a female friend on a holiday weekend. It was a nice day (although brutally hot) and we enjoyed our time together, ending at her apartment overlooking...well, overlooking an alleyway. She had prepared Jello as dessert (it was red). After that we chatted a while longer, she seemed to be getting agitated although I had no idea why. As I returned to my place I suddenly realized that she may have been looking for more. I'm not familiar with the ways of women but I know they engage in Jello wrestling, so the red Jello must have been a hint. That is what Jello is about isn't it?

We got together again around Christmas time that year. An odd event to say the least. Her parents and brother and sister came along as we went to lunch. Very strange, I got the feeling they were checking me out as a possible husband for the young lady. Mind you, her family sat a good 30 feet away, but it was clear they were deciding if I was suitable as marriage material. After that she and I only spoke on the phone.

At any rate, that entire family moved to Florida soon after. Her father was good looking and if I had met him and taken him to dinner I'd have been wondering if would go beyond the meal. Does this (thinking about having dinner with a man) make me queer?

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@Sturgis,

Just how much Jello did this lady make?

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

Would you appreciate the candor of a nice woman saying "don't waste your money on flowers and dinner, just give it to me in cash. Then, give it to me."

If I was a guy, I think I'd wonder why she wasn't offering to pay if she wanted me to give it to her.

Candor? I think that's just a sign of a mercenary way of thinking. Not a human worth spending time with.

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@roger,

Quote:

Just how much Jello did this lady make?

Quite a large amount.

She had mixed in a bowl the size of which my cousin Irene used for making 2 double layer cakes. This bowl was filled to the near top. I remember this young lady being concerned that the jello might not had enough time to set properly. My concern was whether I was expected to eat all of it.

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

Question for the guys. Would you appreciate the candor of a nice woman saying "don't waste your money on flowers and dinner, just give it to me in cash. Then, give it to me."

Sure I would. Not sure it would work as a new social norm though. Too many of us are trapped in self-delusions about "not being that kind of [wo]man".

chai2 wrote:

I'm not talking about a woman who decides to pick up prostitution as a full time profession.

While I'm aware that this is not what you're talking about, it wouldn't really make a difference to me. I never understood the deep distinction between prostitutes, who take your money on an hourly basis for pretending to be your girlfriend, and psychoanalysts, who take your money on an hourly basis for pretending to be your friend. I have nothing against psychoanalysts. Neither do most other people. What's so different about prostitution?

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PS: Beth makes a good point. For most people who have sex with each other, the sex is mutually beneficial. So what's there to pay for? The reward to her for having sex with me is me having sex with her, and vice versa. Hence, if a potential **** buddy says, "here's my price", the problem is not her candor about herself --- as I said, that's a plus. Rather, it's her implied message about me: "You're not attractive enough to have sex with and must pay me to make up for that." I don't enjoy hearing that about myself.

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

chai2 wrote:
Would you appreciate the candor of a nice woman saying "don't waste your money on flowers and dinner, just give it to me in cash. Then, give it to me."

If I was a guy, I think I'd wonder why she wasn't offering to pay if she wanted me to give it to her.

Candor? I think that's just a sign of a mercenary way of thinking. Not a human worth spending time with.

Good Point #1
(thomas is GP#2, I'll address that next post)

It's not so much she Wanted to give it to him, but that she was all right with giving it to him. Meaning she wasn't UNattracted to him, actually not even neutral, but on the "I'd do him" side. But you really don't care for some of who he is, not disliked, just didn't care for what he does with his time, and you wouldn't want to spend time doing what he likes, with him.
It happens that a man meets a woman (or sturgis, another man, a woman another woman) and while they both think the other is pleasant, realize quickly this isn't some long term relationship material, but they sure would like to boff.
There has definitely at least 2 men I've had fine sex with, and would do it again if I could go back in time, but I just as definitely should have left the relationship part out of it. I wouldn't again be deluded that I couldn't be a quality person, and have my physical enjoyment not be such a indicator of who I am as an all around chai.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a mercenary aspect to our personalities.
I believe we all have mercenary qualities. Each and every person.
Question is, why is it all right to sell something we own and cherish on ebay, but not to ask for fee for services performed?

One may collect antique teacups, and cherish each one, but don't mind selling them to someone, so you can let them have it too, while you get money.
What's the difference with giving someone sex, when they were going to get it anyway, but save them time, but not the money they were going to put out?

Is a woman nicer because she'd give it away for free?

Why isn't someone who has mercenary thoughts worth spending time with? Since we all do have those thoughts, and in one way or another act on them, maybe no should spend any time with anyone else.

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@Sturgis,

Sturgis wrote:

I've met many women and gone to dinner with them or to a movie, never once had dreams of it leading anywhere. Does that make me queer?

No, but being sexually attracted to men does.

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What I'm thinking as I'm reading this is that the "man pays on a date" thing is so outmoded and really should go.

I never did it, that I can remember.... would "hang out" with people, as a general friend thing, and then sometimes things would evolve. If something that cost money was involved, always split the bill.

If you take it as a given that a man will pay for dinner and a movie, makes sense to cut that part out of it if both are amenable -- he pays the same amount, and the woman gets the money instead of the food + movie.

But why is that standard, that the man pays? Weird that it's stuck around so far past when it made sense.

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What about if 2 people went out, relationship not going to happen, but one notices the other has a huge garage that's mostly empty.
One says "hey, can I keep my powerboat in that empty space?" and the other answers, "sure, You'd pay a storage place $100 a month, how about if you pay me $80 a month, and your boat will be a lot safer, and closer to where you live, so you can pick it up whenever you want, I trust you with a key to my garage, which is NOT the same key to my home."

The first person would probably see that as a really good deal.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

PS: Beth makes a good point. For most people who have sex with each other, the sex is mutually beneficial. So what's there to pay for? The reward to her for having sex with me is me having sex with her, and vice versa. Hence, if a potential **** buddy says, "here's my price", the problem is not her candor about herself --- as I said, that's a plus. Rather, it's her implied message about me: "You're not attractive enough to have sex with and must pay me to make up for that." I don't enjoy hearing that about myself.

Well, that's pretty bad economics. In a free transaction, the presumption is that both sides benefit. But they don't necessarily benefit equally, and if party A is offering a good that is in short supply and high demand, it makes sense to charge party B more than just a straight-up swap to get it. That's standard lunch-room economics. I'm not going to trade my pastrami and Swiss on rye for a PB&J without getting at least a bag of chips in the deal.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

chai2 wrote:
Question for the guys. Would you appreciate the candor of a nice woman saying "don't waste your money on flowers and dinner, just give it to me in cash. Then, give it to me."

Sure I would. Not sure it would work as a new social norm though. Too many of us are trapped in self-delusions about "not being that kind of [wo]man".

Good Points #2

There's social norms, and social norms, if you catch my drift.

There's the social norms that anyone can write about and agree on in the church newletter, but that's not saying the person sitting next to you in the pew on Sunday didn't just engage in a four-some the night before with your trusted physician of 15 years, and the docs wife.

Whether you knew about it or not wouldn't make any of those 4 people one iota different. They good still be the same good people, who just happened to all like to get together on that level.

Doesn't have to all be about sex either. We all have stuff we know "society" wouldn't approve of, but we're personally fine with, as are the people who we share this stuff with.

Norms of society come in On Stage, and Off Stage varieties.

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@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

Well, that's pretty bad economics. In a free transaction, the presumption is that both sides benefit. But they don't necessarily benefit equally, and if party A is offering a good that is in short supply and high demand, it makes sense to charge party B more than just a straight-up swap to get it. That's standard lunch-room economics. I'm not going to trade my pastrami and Swiss on rye for a PB&J without getting at least a bag of chips in the deal.

In this I'm in agreement.

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this thread needs a soundtrack...

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@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

What I'm thinking as I'm reading this is that the "man pays on a date" thing is so outmoded and really should go.

I never did it, that I can remember.... would "hang out" with people, as a general friend thing, and then sometimes things would evolve. If something that cost money was involved, always split the bill.

If you take it as a given that a man will pay for dinner and a movie, makes sense to cut that part out of it if both are amenable -- he pays the same amount, and the woman gets the money instead of the food + movie.

But why is that standard, that the man pays? Weird that it's stuck around so far past when it made sense.

Ok, let's amend this to "A man who is willing to pay for the date, etc"

I'm not into clubbing, and I know you're not either, but we can all visualize the "typical) club scene (as seen on TV) Smile

In the world of these beautiful TV people (club people, like let's say South Beach) I'm not really feeling the vibe of seeking out one's soul mate. More about the "let's be beautiful together, and have sex" I know, I know you can say maybe that's not true....but for arguments sake, ok?

Look what (typically) the females getting out of this. Champagne, gifts of jewelry, clothes, the opportunity to see and be seen. All she has to do is let's say have sex with guy, to get these benefits. Is that not mercenary thinking, and prostitution? For all we know she's very intelligent, and warm hearted, but she really wants the glitter and knows what the price is maybe she isn't really into the sex, but she can pretend.

The guy is loving being seen with this woman, loves the partying scene, likes to have the sex. They both benefit. They are both extroverts.

Why shouldn't the introverts, or people who have problems in the social arena, have to wait to develop actual relations, which they may not want, to get some of the benefits they do want?

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@chai2,

Quote:

Look what (typically) the females getting out of this. Champagne, gifts of jewelry, clothes, the opportunity to see and be seen. All she has to do is let's say have sex with guy, to get these benefits. Is that not mercenary thinking, and prostitution? For all we know she's very intelligent, and warm hearted, but she really wants the glitter and knows what the price is maybe she isn't really into the sex, but she can pretend.

Right, that's why my train of thought led me to the weirdness of the idea of the man paying for everything.

If that's the context, then skipping the middle part doesn't make much of a difference. (A woman is still accepting payment for service, whether in-kind or monetary.)

This isn't an argument for or against your proposal, it's really its own thing. Why are the social dating norms in 2012 still set for the man to pay for the date? It's weird.

It's a digression though, I can start my own thread if it's too distracting/ off-topic here.

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@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

If that's the context, then skipping the middle part doesn't make much of a difference. (A woman is still accepting payment for service, whether in-kind or monetary.)

No, not off putting at all.

However, re your quote above, I think it would make a difference. I'd rather have the cash, rather than having to spend an entire evening with someone I was merely ok with, just to get dinner and a bauble I wouldn't wear anyway.

Again, if we're talking about 2 extroverts, who get the payoff of being in their favorite environment, with others, the payoff may be fine.

What about those who find those situations exhausting mentally, and all the guy wants is really a sexual interlude with a pleasant person that he's built some trust with? He was totally willing to pay for an evenings entertainment, so why not let him spend it in a way the person he was going to spend it on prefers?

Because it's not "romantic"?

In the marriage my husband had before ours, he was married to a woman who could not stand not spending money if it was in her pocket. She also couldn't stand him not spending any money he had on her, for basically cheap ****.

Early in our marriage, he would come home with some trinket, or flowers or something, until I finally found the fortitude to tell him to stop. I told him we could have used that money to pay our monthly bills, or save toward something really important, like the house renovation.

Yeah, one of the tags here says "Chai wants money" Sure I do, to do with what I want to with it, not what someone else wants me to do with it.

If I was in debt, I'd rather have the money a guy would spend on me for a dinner, and buy a whole weeks worth of food. Not romantic maybe, but the money would be out of his pocket either way, so what difference does it make?

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Prostitution, or good sense?

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