Is that stuff that JTT says about America true?

Not so sure that I agree with Austria

Droll Finn

Finn, you're just another song and dance man, scared shitless about addressing the issues.

You don't usually do dumb, Rocky.

If you had people making excuses for common criminals, thugs, street gangs, murdering, raping and torturing, stealing folks wealth, there be huge outrage. The whole of A2K would be there, especially the hypocrites.

If, on top of that, if they bragged about how great they were, how generous, how kind, how beneficient, the outrage would be that much greater.

The US makes the folks of my hypothetical look like saints. And the reaction by and large is one humongous MEH.

Gracie,
Let me try to answer you.
For the record, I have had JTT on ignore for several months, so I dont know what he has been saying lately.
He is the only person I have on ignore.
However, if we go by his history, he has mentioned My Lai, American Imperialism, war crimes, torture, stealing food from children, and other things.

JTT believes that his is the only truth, and that anyone that disagrees with him is denying that truth.
He believes that the more he yells, the more people listen.
However, that is usually not the case.
The best way to get peoples attention is to speak quietly.

Much of what he says is true, however he does exagerate at times.

Has this country done things that could be considerdd illegal or immoral?
Absolutely we have.

However, JTT focuses so much on those things that he ignores all the good this country has done.
I am a veteran of the US military, so maybe I am a bit biased.

However, you cannot just take his word for history, or my word, or anyone elses.
You must do the research and learn for yourself the truth.
A2K is a good place to get ideas as to where to look, but nobody can tell you what to think about what you find.

As far as JTT goes, there have been many people answer your question, and many of them are people I disagree with on a regular basis, about anything political.
However, we are all telling you the same thing, that should tell you something.

There are however a boat load of people who claim to know what you should be thinking and feeling, and that you are a proven defective the proof being that the program they lay down is not being followed.....there is at A2K as profound and constant lack of respect for other people and their right to their own minds and feelings.

That appears to be the case. Yes. A lot of liberals around.

That is the antithesis of what liberalism was supposed to be about...it is only since the cause has run out of ideas, become morally bankrupt, and the American spirit became corroded by a constant state a fear that we saw the left descent into this muck. It was I think after the left became aware that the majority followed Reagan that the wheels fell off Liberalism, at that point they should have gone back and tried to reinvent themselves, as their ideas had been soundly rejected by the majority, but they could not bring themselves to do what needed to be done. The PC movement to shut down conversation and the working behind the scenes to use the government to oppress the people was the road they took instead.

We are about to see the revolt.

Liberalism only means deviation -- in ANY direction,
e.g., a surgeon who takes a liberal vu
of sanitary rules might only wash one hand, on-the-job.

Or perhaps use only one side of his brain such as you do.

Yes, the side of their EMOTIONS,
to which thay subordinate the logical side.

GracieGirl, am I correct in assuming that your original question was really about America, not about JTT? If so, have your questions about America been answered to your satisfaction? Are there any concrete atrocities you'd like us to discuss with you in more detail?

Thomas it always amused me that a SOB like President Jackson is on our money.

Talk about not keeping his word or faith with the US Indians allies.

Our allies? Incredibly stupid and shallow, as always. At the time of the War of 1812, the Brits provided arms and ammunition to the Indians of the southeast, who had never been our allies in any war. Thus started the Creek War, during which Jackson came to military prominence. One can argue that he over-reacted, but certainly it is understandable why he would want to force the Indians of the southeast to move out of there. I'm not defending what he did--but it is just incredibly idiotic to talk about those people as our allies, and to claim that Jackson betrayed them.

A numbers of the tribes was our allies and fought with our troops during the war of 1812.

Jackson did indeed betrayed them treating them in the same manner as those tribes that fought on the English side.

Then we had the matter of the 5 civilized tribes and his disobeying the SC rulings.

The man was a clear SOB.

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http://www.sff.net/people/rion.wilhelm/five_tribes.html

In the 1830s, the federal government undertook to remove the Five Civilized Tribes from their homelands in Mississippi and Georgia and relocate them to Indian Territory which would later become the state of Oklahoma. The Cherokee and Choctaw resisted removal and sued in the United States Supreme Court for the right to stay on their lands. In two key cases, Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (1831) and Worcester v. Georgia (1832), the Supreme Court upheld the right of these tribes to stay on their lands. President Andrew Jackson ignored the court's opinion and sent federal troops to forcibly remove them and the other "Civilized Tribes." The Cherokee, Choctaw and Creek were removed in 1838 during harsh winter conditions resulting in significant hardship and loss of life. The Cherokee remember this time as the "Trail of Tears."

For anyone who is interested in the actual history of Jackson's attitude towad the Indians of the southeast might consider the following:

At the time of the French and Indian War (1753-60), the Indians of the southeast were not allied to either the Brits or the French. However, many of them opportunistically attacked American settlers, and most prominent among those were the Muskogee people, the Indians we called the Creek. When the Seven Years War (1756-63) ended in Europe, and the Franco-Spanish naval war with England, the Muskogee/Creeks learned that the Brits had won, so they allied themselves with England. Twelve years later, during our revolution, the English supplied them with arms and ammunition, and they attacked American settlers again. Well, that war didn't work out for the allies as they hoped, and the Muskogee/Creeks moved further west into what is now Alabama.

When Tecumseh went out to round up support for a war against the white men. just before the War of 1812, some of the Indians of the southeast responded. A long simmering, largely non-violent "civil war" broke out among the Muskogee/Creeks, with the majority being anti-war, and an energetic minority calling for attacks on the American settlers. Tecumseh was killed in Upper Canada (Ontario) in 1813, but the Muskogee/Creeks didn't know that, so when the English provided them arms and ammunition, they attacked the American settlers for a third time in as many generations. The small American regular army was tied up in the Niagara Peninsula, so Mr. Madison called for volunteers. Tennessee responded (it's no mere whim that Tennessee calls itself the Volunteer State), and lead by Andrew Jackson, they rode into what is now Alabama and made war on the Muskogee/Creeks using their own methods--while the young hotheads were off attacking American settlers, they raided Muskogee villages. Eventually, the anti-war faction, always the majority, prevailed and made peace with the Americans.

By then, the Brits had sailed away from the Chesapeake, and the French provided us intelligence that they intended to attack New Orleans. The Tennessee volunteers responded once again, and lead by General Jackson, they marched off to defend New Orleans. In a pitched battle there, which actually took place after the war had ended officially (news traveled slowly), the Tennessee volunteers, with the Crescent City militia and Marines and sailors from the Navy handed the veterans of Wellington's Peninuslar Army a stunning defeat, and Jackson became an American hero.

Thirteen years later, when Jackson became President after the election of 1828, it's small wonder that he nursed a grudge against the Indians of the southeast. One can argue the morality of his actions, but i don't have a dog in that fight, so help yourselves. However, to claim that he betrayed our Indian "allies" is pure, unrefined bullshit.

Yes, Bill, isn't Wikipedia a wonderful resouce? The Creek War article at Wikipedia. Got a source for that bullshit claim about Indian allies in the War of 1812, Bill? From the Wikipedia article on Indian Wars. The only Indians who fought with us in the War of 1812 fought at our side in Canada, not in the southeast.

Bill here should be the poster child for the dictum that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

http://www.cherokee-nc.com/index.php?page=58

War With The Creeks:

Junaluska, the Cherokee who saved Andrew Jackson’s life and made him a national hero, lived to regret it. Born in the North Carolina mountains around 1776, he made his name and his fame among his own people in the War of 1812 when the mighty tribe of Creek Indians allied themselves with the British against the United States. At the start of the Creek War, Junaluska recruited some 800 Cherokee warriors to go to the aid of Andrew Jackson in northern Alabama. Joined by reinforcements from Tennessee, including more Cherokee, the Cherokee spent the early months of 1814 performing duties in the rear, while Jackson and his Tennessee militia moved like a scythe through the Creek towns. However, that March word came that the Creek Indians were massed behind fortifications at Horseshoe Bend. Jackson, with an army of 2,000 men, including 500 Cherokee led by Junaluska, set out for the Bend, 70 miles away. There, the Tallapoosa River made a bend that enclosed 100 acres in a narrow peninsula opening to the north. On the lower side was an island in the river. Across the neck of the peninsula the Creek had built a strong breastwork of logs and hidden dozens of canoes for use if retreat became necessary.
Storming The Fort:

The fort was defended by 1,000 warriors. There also were 300 women and children. As cannon fire bombarded the fort, the Cherokee crossed the river three miles below and surrounded the bend to block the Creek escape route. They took position where the Creek fort was separated from them by water. The battle raged throughout the morning. There were dead and wounded on both sides. Among the frontiersmen fighting for Jackson that day were Sam Houston & Davy Crockett.
Saving Jackson’s Life And His Reputation:

A few prisoners were brought in, and while officers were attempting to question them in the presence of Jackson, one broke loose, snatched up a knife, and lunged for the general. Junaluska, who had seen the move, responded quickly, sticking out a foot and tripping the Creek warrior, saving Jackson’s life. As the battle wore on, Junaluska conceived a brilliant plan. Without notifying Jackson, he gathered a dozen Cherokees, sneaked to the river’s edge behind the fort, plunged into the water, and swam over to where the Creek canoes were moored. Junaluska and his braves freed the canoes and maneuvered them to the opposite bank where other Cherokee warriors piled into them and, under cover of a steady fire from their own companions, returned to the opposite bank, thus breaching Creek defenses. When more than half the Creeks lay dead, the rest turned and plunged into the river, only to find the banks on the opposite side lined with blazing guns and escape cut off in every direction. Of the 1,300 Creeks inside the stockade, including women and children, not more than 20 escaped. Of 300 prisoners, only three were men. Two weeks after the decisive battle, Billy Weatherford, the greatest of the Creek chiefs, surrendered to Jackson, turning the general into a national hero.
Another Promise Broken:

When the battle of Horseshoe Bend was over, Jackson is reported to have told Junaluska: “As long as the sun shines and the grass grows, there shall be friendship between us, and the feet of the Cherokee shall be toward the east.” In a few short years Junaluska would have occasion to recall those words with bitterness. When the great removal of the Cherokee began, Junaluska said: “If I had known that Jackson would drive us from our homes, I would have killed him that day at the Horseshoe.”
The Great Chief Returns:

Junaluska was among the Cherokee removed to the West. But he returned to the mountains of his birth in 1842, walking all the way from what is now Oklahoma. And when he returned, the state of North Carolina stepped in and recognized the debt that America owed him. By a special act of the state legislature in 1847, North Carolina conferred upon him the right of citizenship and granted him a tract of land at what is now Robbinsville, in Graham County. Junaluska died in 1858 and was buried on a hill above the town where, in 1910, the Daughters of the American Revolution erected a monument to his memory.
A Tribute To Junaluska:

The script on the bronze plaque, bolted to a great hunk of native stone, says in part: “Here lie the bodies of the Cherokee Chief, Junaluska, and Nicie, his wife. Together with his warriors he saved the life of General Jackson at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend, and for his bravery and faithfulness North Carolina made him a citizen and gave him land in Graham County.” An organization known as “Junaluska’s Friends” was recently organized, and restored the Junaluska grave site. Their work will be primarily devoted to keeping alive the memory of this Chief.

So you've got one Cherokee leader and one band of Cherokee fighters joining in one battle, and on that basis you are going to vilify Jackson for betraying "US Indian allies?" It looks to me as though the operative word there is "ally," not allies. You're just as hysterical as JTT--you get a hold of a single fact, and extrapolate it into an alleged betrayal of "US Indian allies." But what you've got is a single instance in a war with an Indian nation who had been attacking American settlers for at least 70 years. Develop some perspective and a sense of proportion, Bill, before you vilify someone like Jackson. I don't care what your moral attitude may be, it's the hysteria and the distortion which digusts me.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.