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Is that stuff that JTT says about America true?

 
 
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 08:50 pm
If it's true, then how come no one's talking about?
If its not true, then why does JTT think it is?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 24 • Views: 26,637 • Replies: 537

 
Robert Gentel
 
  17  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 08:59 pm
@GracieGirl,
I'm not sure what particular part you mean but JTT is very hyperbolic about it. Nevertheless, if your question is whether America is guilty of various really bad things like war crimes then yes it is true.

But for perspective it's worth noting that pretty much any country that has been active in any way militarily could have the same said of them, and America's record for being the superpower that it is is not that bad (that is, other nations in this position of power have tended to abuse that position a lot more).

But yes, JTT is right that America is guilty of a lot of bad things, and also right that we should talk about them more than we do. But JTT is largely ignored because JTT is obsessive about this subject and brings it up on pretty much every thread, regardless of how disconnected to the subject it is.
GracieGirl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 09:03 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Yea she is obsessive but she was right? America hurts people for no reason? I thought we only had war with people who hurt us first like with 9/11. America murders and rapes people for no reason? Just because they can?
Robert Gentel
 
  6  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 09:12 pm
@GracieGirl,
GracieGirl wrote:
America hurts people for no reason?


That's not true, but sometimes the reasons are not noble, and sometimes the reasons are wrong (e.g. the Iraq war's stated reason was to stop their weapons of mass destruction programs, but they really didn't have them and the US was wrong to claim they were working on them).

Quote:
I thought we only had war with people who hurt us first like with 9/11.


Unfortunately no, America does not only reserve war for things like that. Sometimes it's just because the ideology of the government was something America did not agree with. Or just for strategic reasons (e.g. wanting a military base somewhere, or a friendlier government).

Quote:
America murders and rapes people for no reason? Just because they can?


Murder and rape are not national crimes, they are individual crimes. In any war murder and rape will occur. This is a predictable byproduct of war.

However the US doesn't as a nation tend to sanction these activities, though it is true that American soldiers have murdered and raped many people in the course of American wars.
Pemerson
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 09:15 pm
@GracieGirl,
Nobody really knows the truth about much of anything. I'm still reading new books about happenings in the ancient past that someone recently searched out, wrote about.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  8  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 09:31 pm
@GracieGirl,
Well Gracie

America was founded by people who owned slaves. I don't know if you know how brutal slavery in America was.

Read about the "Trail of Tears" where we forcibly moved entire communities of Native Americans simply because they were living on land we wanted and thousands of men women and children died in the process. This was a brutal crime by any standard.

We stole a large chunk of land from Mexico in a bloody war. Have you ever wondered the states in the Southwest that aren't named after Native Americans we decimated have Spanish names like Nevada and Colorado?

The good news is that America has always had a core of people who were willing to stand up in each case, opposing slavery opposing the war against Mexico and the force relocation of Native American communities.

You have to take the good with the bad. There is no question that America is responsible for some pretty brutal acts.

0 Replies
 
GracieGirl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 09:34 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Oh my gosh... Sad

Thanks Robert Gentel! I didnt know all of that. Its disappointing
ryoung
 
  6  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 09:52 pm
@GracieGirl,
America has done some bad things and probably still will in the future just because its part of human nature but America also does many great things which is why we are such a great nation. The fact that people can speak there minds and not worry about the goverment locking them up for it makes it a great nation.
Pemerson
 
  4  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 09:53 pm
@GracieGirl,
Generally speaking, Gracie, we learn all those terrible things slowly, over a lifetime, not a blast all at once, at 13.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 10:19 pm
@GracieGirl,
GracieGirl wrote:

Oh my gosh... Sad

I didnt know all of that.
Of course not....you are a product of the American education system.
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 10:44 pm
America has done many wrong things, but to become obsessed with that is also wrong.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 11:28 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
and America's record for being the superpower that it is is not that bad (that is, other nations in this position of power have tended to abuse that position a lot more).


I don't think that that is accurate at all, Robert. The US early learned new tricks. They parcel out their torture, rape, murder, to provide cover, but that hardly provides a defence for the top people who perpetrate this bloodshed.

Quote:
But for perspective it's worth noting that pretty much any country that has been active in any way militarily could have the same said of them,


But any country hasn't escaped the punishment for those war crimes - war crimes that have largely been defined by the US. Arguably, some have.

But that's a silly argument. No murderer gets off by pointing out other murderers.

When I bring it up it's because of the rank hypocrisy that goes on. There is constant bragging about how great the US is; the song and dance routines when people from countries that have a US sponsored dictator go for freedom are particularly galling; how the US helps others in the world - for the record the US is the stingiest or close to the stingiest country in the world and this after having stolen so much of the wealth of the world from poor countries.

It's pretty damn hypocritical and just plain dumb to suggest that these things shouldn't be brought up. It's equivalent to suggesting that people not suggest that criminals be held to account, that murderers and rapists and the worst of the worst torturers ought not to be discussed.

And there's no shortage of Nancy Graces around here, whipping up a frenzy when there has been some murder or some heinous act. Then the gang is all for a lynching but right now, as we speak, much much worse things are going on in two innocent countries.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2011 11:57 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
GG: America hurts people for no reason?



Quote:
Robert: That's not true,


That is the absolute truth, Robert. How can you suggest such a thing? Saturation bombing Cambodia [not to mention Vietnam], napalming villages in Vietnam, spreading Agent Orange all across Vietnam, all the torture centers run by the CIA, destabilizing governments the world over, running gangs of torturer, murderers, rapists, ... .

You are attempting to soft soap these things - for what possible reason I simply cannot imagine.

Quote:
America murders and rapes people for no reason? Just because they can?



Quote:
Murder and rape are not national crimes, they are individual crimes. In any war murder and rape will occur. This is a predictable byproduct of war.


Absolutely false. Nicaragua is a prime example. The Reagan government trained and supported the Contras and knew full well what they were doing -

Quote:
The United States CIA is running 50 covert actions, destabilizing further almost one third of the countries in the world today....

By the way, everything I'm sharing with you tonight is in the public record. The 50 covert actions - these are secret, but that has been leaked to us by members of the oversight committee of the Congress. I urge you not to take my word for anything. I'm going to stand here and tell you and give you examples of how our leaders lie. Obviously I could be lying. The only way you can figure it out for yourself is to educate yourselves. The French have a saying, `them that don't do politics will be done'. If you don't fill your mind eagerly with the truth, dig it out from the records, go and see for yourself, then your mind remains blank and your adrenaline pumps, and you can be mobilized and excited to do things that are not in your interest to do....

Nicaragua is not the biggest covert action, it is the most famous one. Afghanistan is, we spent several hundred million dollars in Afghanistan. We've spent somewhat less than that, but close, in Nicaragua....

[When the U.S. doesn't like a government], they send the CIA in, with its resources and activists, hiring people, hiring agents, to tear apart the social and economic fabric of the country, as a technique for putting pressure on the government, hoping that they can make the government come to the U.S.'s terms, or the government will collapse altogether and they can engineer a coup d'etat, and have the thing wind up with their own choice of people in power.

Now ripping apart the economic and social fabric of course is fairly textbook-ish. What we're talking about is going in and deliberately creating conditions where the farmer can't get his produce to market, where children can't go to school, where women are terrified inside their homes as well as outside their homes, where government administration and programs grind to a complete halt, where the hospitals are treating wounded people instead of sick people, where international capital is scared away and the country goes bankrupt. If you ask the state department today what is their official explanation of the purpose of the Contras, they say it's to attack economic targets, meaning, break up the economy of the country. Of course, they're attacking a lot more.

To destabilize Nicaragua beginning in 1981, we began funding this force of Somoza's ex-national guardsmen, calling them the contras (the counter-revolutionaries). We created this force, it did not exist until we allocated money. We've armed them, put uniforms on their backs, boots on their feet, given them camps in Honduras to live in, medical supplies, doctors, training, leadership, direction, as we've sent them in to de-stabilize Nicaragua. Under our direction they have systematically been blowing up graineries, saw mills, bridges, government offices, schools, health centers. They ambush trucks so the produce can't get to market. They raid farms and villages. The farmer has to carry a gun while he tries to plow, if he can plow at all.

If you want one example of hard proof of the CIA's involvement in this, and their approach to it, dig up `The Sabotage Manual', that they were circulating throughout Nicaragua, a comic-book type of a paper, with visual explanations of what you can do to bring a society to a halt, how you can gum up typewriters, what you can pour in a gas tank to burn up engines, what you can stuff in a sewage to stop up the sewage so it won't work, things you can do to make a society simply cease to function.

Systematically, the contras have been assassinating religious workers, teachers, health workers, elected officials, government administrators. You remember the assassination manual? that surfaced in 1984. It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror. This is a technique that they're using to traumatize the society so that it can't function.

I don't mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html


Quote:
However the US doesn't as a nation tend to sanction these activities, though it is true that American soldiers have murdered and raped many people in the course of American wars.


Yes, America as a nation does sanction these things because America as a nation, and America as a people know what is going on, what has gone on and they do nothing to stop it.

What they do do, and do well, is attack people who bring these things to light.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 12:03 am
@ryoung,
Quote:
America has done some bad things and probably still will in the future just because its part of human nature but America also does many great things which is why we are such a great nation.


Not "some" RYoung, and not "bad things". America has committed numerous war crimes. America is the largest sponsor of terrorism and it is the largest terrorist organization/government in the world.

I started a thread, after some urging from folks like you who wanted to talk about the great things the US has done. The thread is empty. Don't you think that that is rather odd?

Quote:
The fact that people can speak there minds and not worry about the goverment locking them up for it makes it a great nation.


With all due respect, this is simply vacuous propaganda. Consider how many countries there are in the world where people can do this.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 12:04 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
America has done many wrong things, but to become obsessed with that is also wrong.


JW, JW, why don't you at least consider some tiny measure of honesty?

We should call this the euphemism thread - "many wrong things", Jaysus Keeeerist!
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 12:27 am
@JTT,
GG: America hurts people for no reason?

Robert: That's not true,


Quote:

The United States is a Leading Terrorist State
Noam Chomsky interviewed by David Barsamian

...

Q: Your comment that the U.S. is a “leading terrorist state” might stun many Americans. Could you elaborate on that?

A: I just gave one example, Nicaragua. The U.S. is the only country that was condemned for international terrorism by the World Court and that rejected a Security Council resolution calling on states to observe international law. It continues international terrorism. That example’s the least of it.

And there are also what are in comparison, minor examples. Everybody here was quite properly outraged by the Oklahoma City bombing, and for a couple of days, the headlines all read, Oklahoma City looks like Beirut. I didn’t see anybody point out that Beirut also looks like Beirut, and part of the reason is that the Reagan Administration had set off a terrorist bombing there in 1985 that was very much like Oklahoma City, a truck bombing outside a mosque timed to kill the maximum number of people as they left. It killed eighty and wounded two hundred, aimed at a Muslim cleric whom they didn’t like and whom they missed. It was not very secret.

I don’t know what name you give to the attack that’s killed maybe a million civilians in Iraq and maybe a half a million children, which is the price the Secretary of State says we’re willing to pay. Is there a name for that?

Supporting Israeli atrocities is another one. Supporting Turkey’s crushing of its own Kurdish population, for which the Clinton Administration gave the decisive support, 80 percent of the arms, escalating as atrocities increased, is another.

Or take the bombing of the Sudan, one little footnote, so small that it is casually mentioned in passing in reports on the background to the Sept. 11 crimes. How would the same commentators react if the bin Laden network blew up half the pharmaceutical supplies in the U.S. and the facilities for replenishing them?

Or Israel? Or any country where people “matter”? Although that’s not a fair analogy, because the U.S. target is a poor country which had few enough drugs and vaccines to begin with and can’t replenish them. Nobody knows how many thousands or tens of thousands of deaths resulted from that single atrocity, and bringing up that death toll is considered scandalous.

If somebody did that to the U.S. or its allies, can you imagine the reaction? In this case we say, Oh, well, too bad, minor mistake, let’s go on to the next topic. Other people in the world don’t react like that. When bin Laden brings up that bombing, he strikes a resonant chord, even with people who despise and fear him, and the same, unfortunately, is true of much of the rest of his rhetoric.

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/200111--02.htm
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 04:02 am
@GracieGirl,
Lord we are a nation state and we do what seems to be in our best interest like every other nation state that had ever existed in history.

Like Robert had pointed out given our power we had been more "moral" then most nations.

For example when we alone had atoms weapons we did not destroy the serous threat of the USSR.
BillRM
 
  3  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 04:07 am
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye no nation tend to rubbed the ugly aspects of their history into the face of their children.

Look how to this day Japan white wash their very bad behaviors in WW2 in the books aim at their children.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 04:33 am
@hawkeye10,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies


Japanese history textbook controversies refers to controversial content in government-approved history textbooks used in the secondary education (junior high schools and high schools) of Japan. The controversies primarily concern what some international observers perceive to be Japanese nationalist efforts to whitewash the actions of the Empire of Japan during World War II.[1][2]

Also at issue is the constitutionality of the governmentally-approved textbook depictions of World War II, Japanese war crimes, and Japanese imperialism during the first half of the 20th century. The history textbook controversies have been an issue of deep concern both domestically and internationally, particularly in states which were victims of Imperial Japan during the war.

Despite the efforts of the nationalist textbook reformers, by the late 1990s the most common Japanese schoolbooks contained references to, for instance, the Nanking Massacre, Unit 731, and the comfort women of World War II,[2] all historical issues which have faced challenges from ultranationalists in the past.[3] The most recent of the controversial textbooks, the New History Textbook, published in 2000, was shunned by "nearly all of Japan's school districts".[2]

Contents

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  10  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 06:36 am
In my opinion, JTT is taking this to an absurd extreme.

It seems logical to me to accept that the United States (and any country for that matter) has done some pretty bad things and will probably do some bad things in the future. We need to acknowledge this but going crazy about it doesn't do any good.

There are two extremes. Some people take the America Right or Wrong stance and feel that any criticism of America is blasphemy. And some people take the America is the Devil stance and highlight and exaggerate each wrong. Both of these sides run into problems with reality.

We have the responsibility to help bring out the good in America while challenging the bad. Being a responsible citizen means getting informed an involved. This means having a voice and being a part of the process. I have found that the most effective voices appeal to the good of America to address the bad.





 

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