24
   

Is that stuff that JTT says about America true?

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 10:27 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
You confuse the deeply personal decision to not rant hysterically on an internet forum with ignoring an issue.


You confuse this issue by pretending to address the issues with a steady stream of euphemisms and diversions, Robert.

It matters not one iota that there have been others who have been as bad or worse. That is not the issue. The issue is the war crimes, the ongoing war crimes, the ongoing terrorism of the USA.

And you now resort to this behavior instead of addressing those issues that I addressed in your posts.
joefromchicago
 
  7  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 10:28 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
By trying to make this about me. By bringing in the issue of grammar and language. Complete red herrings.

You are the one who first mentioned your inability to get others to speak on this issue. I merely addressed that. If you didn't want anyone to talk about your own failings as a poster, you shouldn't have broached the topic in the first place.

JTT wrote:
How can you hope to stop the carnage if you're silent about it. Silence is acquiescence.

It is a special conceit of yours to imagine that you're the only one on this forum who has ever accused the US or its leaders of war crimes, as if you have some sort of copyright on the topic. My record on A2K speaks for itself. I'll let others who are not blinded by the glare of their own self-righteousness decide whether I've been silent about this issue.

JTT wrote:
Now there you go being disingenuous again. Care to make some extraneous comments about grammar or some other inanity?

No, I'm cool.

JTT wrote:
I think that the responses from all the "adults" on this thread gives you a pretty good idea of the likelihood of anyone getting the message across.

The other contributors to this thread, including the high schooler who started it, have displayed a level of maturity to which you can only aspire.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 10:37 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
You are the one who first mentioned your inability to get others to speak on this issue.


Dealing with reality is not most American posters' long suit.

Quote:
It is a special conceit of yours to imagine that you're the only one on this forum who has ever accused the US or its leaders of war crimes, as if you have some sort of copyright on the topic. My record on A2K speaks for itself.


Stop being so defensive, Joe. Did I state that you have failed miserably or at all in this regard?

Quote:
The other contributors to this thread, including the high schooler who started it, have displayed a level of maturity to which you can only aspire.


Absolutely, Joe. Nothing says maturity more than a bunch of adults making excuses for war crimes and terrorism.

Consider the response to a poster who expressed great admiration for OBL, or Saddam, or Pinochet - oh wait, OmSig does that and the silence is deafening.

Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 10:43 am
I believe JTT's feelings can be analogous to a child that learns that his parents are doing certain things that are less than ethical, so they can live the lifestyle the child has grown up with. Now, it is not the child's place to counsel his/her parents about their ethical behavior, aside from how they treat the child. And, more importantly, there enters into the child's analysis (if it has the inclination or ability to be introspective), whether the child would be an "ingrate" to all that the parents have done for the child, irrespective of the parents' supposedly less than ethical behavior in other venues.

So, I cannot listen to JTT, since my family had a much harder life in Czarist Russia in the nineteenth century, and no love was lost with the anti-Semitic Russian population. So, in that context, JTT's responses to my postings is literally water off a duck's back, since no one is going to make me an ingrate for being in a country where my family obtained a safe haven from the dementia that took place in Europe two times in the first half of the 20th century (by all those peace loving Europeans that today can say, "Nazi? Who was a Nazi?") Get it.

In effect, I wish no good fortune for JTT, in his ongoing diatribes against the best country in the world. And, may Santa give him a small lump of coal for Christmas, for his gratuitous ad-hominems for my being a patriotic American.
joefromchicago
 
  6  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 10:47 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Dealing with reality is not most American posters' long suit.

Really? I didn't know you were American.

JTT wrote:
Stop being so defensive, Joe. Did I state that you have failed miserably or at all in this regard?

You accused me of being silent. Are you now willing to admit that you were wrong?

JTT wrote:
Absolutely, Joe. Nothing says maturity more than a bunch of adults making excuses for war crimes and terrorism.

Who made excuses?

JTT wrote:
Consider the response to a poster who expressed great admiration for OBL, or Saddam, or Pinochet - oh wait, OmSig does that and the silence is deafening.

Like you, OmSigDavid is one of the most widely ignored posters on this forum. Silence in the aftermath of one of his posts shouldn't be taken for approbation, no more than it should be taken as approbation for your views. Sometimes, silence just means that no one is listening.
Robert Gentel
 
  13  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 10:47 am
@JTT,
You didn't address any "issues" JTT, you just went on a copy and paste rant without addressing any real disagreement we have. I said that it is not true that America kills "for no reason" and went on to say that sometimes the reasons were wrongheaded, self-serving and fundamentally immoral. You disagreed with this but not in any material way, you simply thought I was whitewashing it because I didn't adopt your screeching, hyperbolic tone. That's not an issue worthy to address; of whether I have the requisite amount of foam on my mouth to satisfy you. If I don't act as crazy as you, you say it's a "diversion", ignoring that I happen to agree with you for the most part.

We don't disagree about the politics, we disagree on the amount of bat-**** crazy that the forum should be inflicted with. I'm with you on the politics, I'm just not on board with the jackass quotient you require in going about expressing it.

I have criticized the same things you have on multiple occasions. My failing, in your eyes, is merely in that I don't go around like a jackass trying to force people to talk about it and to express the same sheer amount of emotive instability about it. There is no point to that, you do your purported cause no good if your interlocutors can't abide said interlocution. You justify this boorish behavior to yourself on the basis of the great wrong you feel you are exposing and think you do good work but you do it precious little good by being so hysterical about it. If your message is so important then the messenger should find a way to communicate it. You think it's simply all denial (not that that doesn't play a role, but that's not really what you face) and refuse to accept that it's your personality that is what is acutely off-putting.

Like it has already been said, the best way to try to change it is to appeal to the good Americans. Not to just try to vilify and create a caricature of America the Great Satan and come across as a wild-eyed lunatic. That is not the way to get your message across, and you appear to believe it is very important to do so. If you think your message is important to get across, you are going to have to figure out how these human beings tend to work, and how to effectively communicate with them.

Let's not mince word. America has done simply awful things. America continues to do awful things (I want the Nobel committee to ask for Obama's Peace Prize back, I want Obama to be tossed from office for being elected on an anti-war sentiment and proceeding to escalate the warfare). I am no apologist for any of this, JTT. I consider my American nationality incidental, I have lived in over 10 countries and choose not to live in America. I am not a nationalist of any nation. I criticize them all without reserve (ask anyone here, if there's a nation well-represented here they've heard me criticize it irreverently).

What we disagree on is your behavior, JTT. Not the politics. You hijack moral causes to justify the way you behave with others on this forum, using their moral cover to deflect from the wholly insupportable way in which you conduct yourself on this forum. And it's a damn shame for folks like me, who care about the same things you do, because you manage to make the very message you are trying to get across easier to ignore as the lunacy of the extreme.

You aren't ignored because of your message, your message is ignored because of you.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 10:53 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
You accused me of being silent. Are you now willing to admit that you were wrong?


No, I most certainly am not.

I said,

"How can you hope to stop the carnage if you're silent about it. Silence is acquiescence. "

That was the general 'you', not you specifically, Joe.

Are you now willing to admit that you were wrong?

Being one of the most ignored only serves to illustrate that dealing with reality is not most Americans long suit.

But when it can no longer be ignored, out comes shoot the messenger.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 11:06 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
That was the general 'you', not you specifically, Joe.

Was I included in that plural "you?"
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 11:14 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Was I included in that plural "you?"


Most assuredly not, Joe. Though I hadn't ever seen the thread you linked to, I have noticed the odd time or two where you have involved yourself.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 11:17 am
There's a new series starting soon on Showtime - Homeland. I wonder what that will be all about?
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 11:19 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
Was I included in that plural "you?"

Most assuredly not, Joe.

Then why did you make a statement directed to others in a post that was directed to me?
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 11:22 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
You aren't ignored because of your message, your message is ignored because of you.

Damn straight. A true believer who justifies any and all manner of behavior because his cause is RIGHT, dammit!

As if posting on a message board is righting the wrongs in the world....
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 11:28 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
As if posting on a message board is righting the wrongs in the world
Trying to move public opinion towards truth is a damn righteous project, and trying to do it by telling truth in the public square is much more honorable than are those who try to get their way by telling lies and carrying out subversive acts.

I would be much more impressed if the consensus was that JTT is wrong, but all anyone has retorted with is that he is tiresome.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 01:36 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Then why did you make a statement directed to others in a post that was directed to me?


I told you, Joe, most assuredly not. Are you ready to apologize now.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 01:40 pm
@JTT,
That doesn't answer my question.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 01:56 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
Let's not mince words.


Then you mince your words, Robert.

Quote:
I said that it is not true that America kills "for no reason" and went on to say that sometimes the reasons were wrongheaded, self-serving and fundamentally immoral.


Quote:
That's not true, but sometimes the reasons are not noble, and sometimes the reasons are wrong (e.g. the Iraq war's stated reason was to stop their weapons of mass destruction programs, but they really didn't have them and the US was wrong to claim they were working on them).


"Sometimes", get real, Robert, "not noble", jesus! Look at the historical record. "sometimes" just doesn't equate to 7 million dead. What's noble about 7 million dead, millions in poverty because the US steals the very bread from the mouths of children, countries ruined, kids playing with WMDs ?

This has been the perpetrated fantasy - "America has made some mistakes". The record shows that contrary to the "odd rogue" idea, US troops have systematically slaughtered people in countries all around the world. My Lai wasn't a rogue situation, it was par for the course among people who know.

Has anyone paid for all these crimes, beyond picking out some poor grunt who serves a couple months in the brig and then is set free. What of the top brass, these are war crimes that are every bit the equivalent of what Japan and the Nazis did. Ever heard of a US president doing time? How many have been hung?

You want Obama's award taken away, WOW! What about Obama being brought up on charges for perpetuating the war crimes of Bush et al?

My copy and paste showed that you were putting the soft sell on deeply immoral actions - actions that need to be described in full because of the depth of the delusion.

You can cut to the facts for other situations but you sure don't on these issues.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 02:07 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
Or just for strategic reasons (e.g. wanting a military base somewhere, or a friendlier government).


Euphemisms, euphemisms. Not a friendlier government, a government that will allow US businesses to steal the wealth of others. Wanting a military base somewhere, so the US steals Diego Garcia right out from under the natives living there and forces them to move elsewhere.

If the military veterans for justice can talk straight, why can't you?

Quote:
Many of the world's most repressive dictators have been friends of America. Tyrants, torturers, killers, and sundry dictators and corrupt puppet-presidents have been aided, supported, and rewarded handsomely for their loyalty to US interests. Traditional dictators seize control through force, while constitutional dictators hold office through voting fraud or severely restricted elections, and are frequently puppets and apologists for the military juntas which control the ballot boxes. In any case, none have been democratically elected by the majority of their people in fair and open elections.

They are democratic America's undemocratic allies. They may rise to power through bloody ClA-backed coups and rule by terror and torture. Their troops may receive training or advice from the CIA and other US agencies. US military aid and weapons sales often strengthen their armies and guarantee their hold on power. Unwavering "anti-communism" and a willingness to provide unhampered access for American business interests to exploit their countries' natural resources and cheap labor are the excuses for their repression, and the primary reason the US government supports them. They may be linked internationalIy to extreme right-wing groups such as the World Anti-Communist League, and some have had strong Nazi affiliations and have offered sanctuary to WWll Nazi war criminals.

They usually grow rich, while their countries' economies deteriorate and the majority of their people live in poverty. US tax dollars and US-backed loans have made billionaires of some, while others are international drug dealers who also collect CIA paychecks. Rarely are they called to account for their crimes. And rarely still, is the US government held responsible for supporting and protecting some of the worst human rights violators in the world.

http://www.military-veterans-for-justice.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10&Itemid=13

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 02:12 pm
@joefromchicago,
Neither does that answer mine. But if you want to do this Parados thing, have at 'er.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 02:14 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I would be much more impressed if the consensus was that JTT is wrong, but all anyone has retorted with is that he is tiresome.


0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 02:24 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Neither does that answer mine. But if you want to do this Parados thing, have at 'er.

I have no idea what a "Parados thing" is, but if it means that your persistent refusal to answer a simple question is an admission on your part that you are a liar and a coward, then yes, this is a Parados thing.

Consequently, you are not entitled to an apology from me and none will be forthcoming. I, on the other hand, am entitled to an apology from you, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it.
 

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