Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

@Thomas,

This is my answer....

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Oh, I have a few ideas:

Walk on water for a hundred yards or so.
Revive a corpse so far gone it already smells.
Feed one fish to a multitude of hungry people in a way that leaves them all filled up.

How do you know he hasn't already done these things??

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Of course, all these tests would have to happen under laboratory conditions: no hiding stones under the water's surface, no exchanging the corpse by an identical twin who's alive, no smuggling new fish in through the backdoor, or any tricks like that.

What makes you think that because it wasn't done in a laboratory the first time, means that he was in fact hiding stones, exchanging of corpse, or smuggling fish??

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It's easy to prove, really, for any person who actually can accomplish the tasks that the Gospels purport to document.

So then why must you be an eye witness to validate the documents?? Others have already done this...Why must he do it again??

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Oh, PS: Providing a proof of the Goldbach conjecture, or a counterexample to it, would go a long way towards demonstrating omniscience.

Do you mean like how Satan is described as being a leader, but is the leader of all evil, and against God? And still allowed to exist?? Do you mean a counter example such as that one??

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

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You think you are being persecuted?

Yes...

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I think that most posters have been remarkably restrained in their responses to you.

If that is the case then why does it offend you, and Setanta, that I do not follow what you believe I should in your own head?? or would this be persecution?? Have I ever told you what you would or should do???

But in any event Most of them have been restrained, because they actually value humanity, (I think) You will see who is a wolf in sheep's clothing rather quickly, just take notice....

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@Thomas,

please explain how I am misinterpreting you, and I will with draw my faults....

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Your misinterpretation is that correcting errors, pointing out injustices, and arguing against prejudices constitutes something akin to warfare.

If I am in fact misinterpreting you, and your words...Then please explain to me what you mean by standing up to religious bigotry?? What do you mean by "stand up" to them?? How do you purpose to stand up to them, if not "trying to battle them"? How is that different than taking a warrior stance...etc???

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Just because you not Litteraly wearing an Army Fatigue or holding a gun does not mean your not ready for battle, and potentially "trying" to wage war....

So since, I answered your questions, I hope you will answer mine...

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@FOUND SOUL,

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How do you guide? Answer people when they ask. How do you dictate? You shove your own opinion/s down other people's throat as if you are the only one correct.

I have said on here many of times, that my opinions may be wrong, and theirs may be correct...I don't know another way of portraying my message, without soothsaying, and being open-minded at the same time....Do you have any suggestions?

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It's a matter of "belief" ... Yet, you believe in God, but you feel that people that do not, have to pose questions in mis-trust... So, is that not a case of each to their own.. Some believe, some don't... As it should be, a peoples choice.

I never said that people that don't believe are posing in mis-trust...If you feel that this is happening, than it seems this is your perceptions of how they are acting in response to what I post/say...not directly how I feel....

And yes I agree, that some believe and some don't=peoples choice...I have no problem with that...problem is, is that I don't see a lot challenging their world views, or beliefs/lack of beliefs...and to claim your right when you don't challenge what you believe or don't believe, tells me that there probably is not much validity behind this person's views...Until they challenge them...and are out of their "comfort zone"

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

And furthermore, (I do not know how current you are with this thread) I have never said I wished to be a dictator...I never said people have to forcefully accept my views...I have openly said I come here to ask questions and learn...and give my message...in return...If there is some type of bitterness, than I perceive that it is their voice inside them, and them trying to dispel it, or run from it....it is not directly from me...I have been nothing but honest, and truthful, with exactly how I feel, even to say I don't understand a person, or to ask a question so that I better understand them....etc...

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@ehBeth,

I would just like to say one thing, since you now seem to agree with Setanta's opinions...If I am stating something, and your so upset your feeling bitterness, angry, hatred, etc...then that has little to nothing to do with what I am in fact saying, and has everything to do with your convictions concerning God...Or your inner voice, and what you chose to do once you hear and realize it...

I can not sympathize with you if you feel bitterness toward me, for I honestly do not have bitterness toward Setanta or you....or anyone else....for that matter...like I said, most of atheism to me has much more to do with dispelling of convictions, or doubts, than it does of trying to show me that there is no evidence to support a Deity....And like wise if it was not me, another Christian would be explaining these things to you. And you would be slamming them for their "hatefulness" or "anger" that does not exist...but is your voice speaking directly to you, in which your trying to deny....

Funny how some of you claim I am a dictator, and force my views, yet none have blocked me, and I don't feel bitterness toward any of you....and actually use these threads to learn or enlighten my experiences...I do not know what the goal of many of you out there is, in coming here....

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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For when we ask for a sign, it is (most times) to dispel doubts...which is exactly how I take having evidence, to support a God, is...

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I never said that people that don't believe are posing in mis-trust

But you did, right there.

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I don't know another way of portraying my message, without soothsaying, and being open-minded at the same time....Do you have any suggestions?

I gave you my answer in my origional post... To guide is being asked "how?" and so you offer your wisdom, opinion, ideas...which in turn if it was helpful guides a person. "Portraying your message" you asked a question.. Therefore that requires an answer.. You are not 100% on those answers, you wish to portray, in your words, your message... therefore there should never have been a question, that was a leading question in order to portray your "message"...

Like I said, we are our own people and we therefore have a right to own ourselves, be free and make our own management call, not be "told".

You can not give people your message if they do not want to hear it.

Possibly your problem is, is that you feel you are doing good by doing so, and hope someone hears it...

"Only if they ask" can you give them your help, if that is what you think you are doing... And, even then, it is only your "opinion" it's up to the person to take what ever they want from that, or not.

1 Reply

@FOUND SOUL,

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I gave you my answer in my origional post... To guide is being asked "how?" and so you offer your wisdom, opinion, ideas...which in turn if it was helpful guides a person. "Portraying your message" you asked a question.. Therefore that requires an answer.. You are not 100% on those answers, you wish to portray, in your words, your message... therefore there should never have been a question, that was a leading question in order to portray your "message"...

Why not? I am asking questions to learn as well, as have my questions answered...

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Like I said, we are our own people and we therefore have a right to own ourselves, be free and make our own management call, not be "told".

I agree, and do not wish to force people to except what I say, challenge it if they would like....Challenge what they know if they are willing....

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You can not give people your message if they do not want to hear it.

I disagree, and Saint Paul, showed how...Have you ever heard of building beliefs on your own foundation??

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Possibly your problem is, is that you feel you are doing good by doing so, and hope someone hears it...

Yes, indeed I do, and know people will hear it...

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"Only if they ask" can you give them your help, if that is what you think you are doing... And, even then, it is only your "opinion" it's up to the person to take what ever they want from that, or not.

I will do one better than that, Some do not even need to ask for help, and you can see that they want to know or are interested....I have never said that my opinions are 100% the correct ones, and I embrace them to challenge what I say to them...as I likewise challenge what they say to me.....

thanks for your input....

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

How do you know he hasn't already done these things??

I don't, but I don't know that he has, either. Remember, your original scenario was that Jesus talks to me and says: "I am Jesus, what will I have to do to prove to you I am the savior and God in the flesh...." This is what Jesus would have to do to prove himself to me.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

What makes you think that because it wasn't done in a laboratory the first time, means that he was in fact hiding stones, exchanging of corpse, or smuggling fish??

The Gospels are hearsay, written down by True Believers with no interest in scrutinizing their story, decades after the alleged events. Even so, they mention no laboratories, and (with the exception of doubting Thomas) no efforts to fact-check the alleged miracle.

I agree with what David Hume said about miracles: In order to believe in one, the evidence for it has to be so strong as to make the miracle's non-occurrence an even greater miracle. The Bible's miracles, however, don't meet this standard because nothing but hearsay supports them. This is much-too-weak evidence to make the Bible's miracles more likely than a mistake by some hear-sayer, scribe, or translator.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

So then why must you be an eye witness to validate the documents?? Others have already done this...Why must he do it again??

Because your question was, what must he do to convince me. To convince me, he has to demonstrate the trick either to me or to people I trust. I'm in no position to trust the people to whom Jesus allegedly demonstrated his tricks earlier. I don't know them, nor do I know their methodology, if any, for weeding out frauds.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Do you mean like how Satan is described as being a leader, but is the leader of all evil, and against God? And still allowed to exist?? Do you mean a counter example such as that one??

No, not like that. It has to be a proposition about which we don't know the truth yet, the truth of which we can test, and the test of which yields an unambiguous result. Goldbach's conjecture is a good candidate. Your claim about Satan is not, because it depends on interpretation and cannot be tested with any rigor.

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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I gave you my answer in my origional post... To guide is being asked "how?" and so you offer your wisdom, opinion, ideas...which in turn if it was helpful guides a person. "Portraying your message" you asked a question.. Therefore that requires an answer.. You are not 100% on those answers, you wish to portray, in your words, your message... therefore there should never have been a question, that was a leading question in order to portray your "message"...

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Why not? I am asking questions to learn as well, as have my questions answered...

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challenge it if they would like....Challenge what they know if they are willing....

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I disagree, and Saint Paul, showed how...Have you ever heard of building beliefs on your own foundation??[/[/b]quote]
[quote]Yes, indeed I do, and know people will hear it...

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I will do one better than that, Some do not even need to ask for help, and you can see that they want to know or are interested....I have never said that my opinions are 100% the correct ones, and I embrace them to challenge what I say to them...as I likewise challenge what they say to me.....

thanks for your input....

I think that all speaks for itself...

Someone once said to me, CW, (that is my short name somewhere else), don't beat yourself up, if you help one person then it was all worth it, you can not MAKE people see..

How many times do you read something on a forum "help" and people answer and they are not heard, only "told off", "you don't know me how dare you assume"..

Someone else said something to me that has stuck with me... He said... "but they asked so you are not doing anything wrong, it's when they don't and you interfere you are". To that effect and he was/is right...

Where was the challenge in this thread? If not only in your mind... To pose a question loaded, in order to challenge and believe you can change people's thoughts...

You never wanted people to speak and sit back and access.

And, I've only posted on one other thread pertaining to spirituality and you have posted three times after me... preaching.

It is not going to happen, it's time you realised that.

Again, you asked "how?" regarding helping... Do it when asked, don't force your opinions no one will listen.

Thanks for letting me have my input.. I thought it was a Forum.. In that anyone can reply:)

Take care, I hope you listen.

1 Reply

@FOUND SOUL,

I will actually do my best...as I did listen and take in what you said...take care as well!!

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@Thomas,

So if Jesus did all of that you would embrace him??

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

So if Jesus did all of that you would embrace him??

Sure, why not?

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Don't give up to soon, keep looking for that sign Chights47 maybe it will come. Be specific about your sign so you will not have any doubts about it when you finally do see it. I asked for my sign to be written in capital letters and for it to be 1o miles high and 100 miles long so that it will be visible for others to see as well, that way I wont be the only one who sees it.

I can't really tell if you're joking here or not...I don't ask for signs because all of the "signs" that have been claimed, all of them have been falsified or at least not proven. If a sign does happen to occur before the the assumed rapture (which XXSpadeMasterXX said won't happen) then I might reconsider and delve further into the matter. Until that time however, I just won't really give a **** about "signs" and "evidence" over 2000 years of supposed "ultimate truth" yet nothing has ever come to back it up? That seems a little more than mere bullshit to me, especially when I'm given to believe that I can really only see these signs and believe them if I already believe in them. It's like voodoo, it's bullshit unless you believe that it isn't!

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

So then the answer to my question is that my opinion does offend you???Yes?? now you can understand why your opinion offended me....

I wasn't offend, you were just wrong and I corrected your ignorance...unless you were being disingenuous in a direct and purposeful attempt to offend me to make a useless point. If I'm right in my opinion then you should change what's wrong with it so that you won't be offend by what actually is, if I am wrong then attempt to correct me.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

I was not throwing you under the bus, I was asking a question that I felt was highlighted with your post...What is the difference to atheists with saying basically the same thing you have...that is not at all implying your the only one who does or says this...

Oh I apologize, the specific wording you used was "throw them into the fire".

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

once Setanta took it to the next level, I felt inclined to keep these people out of it, and leave them alone, rather than throwing them to the fire, and risk Setanta fight with them in the manner in which he did to me...

You may also locate your post here: http://able2know.org/topic/176688-70#post-4832229 Unlike you I'm willing to give evidence First and foremost so that I do not appear disingenuous. You had whined about it page after page and then bring it up now after the "storm has blown over". You have opened up this can of worms again... This argument went on for at least 7 pages and about 10 pages later you bring it up again for pretty much no reason.

Also looking back at those posts I see a few that I would now like to comment on that weren't originally direct to me but I would like to comment on them (since we're all about opening up previous can of worms now).

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Notice how I don't have (supposivly Hate problems) with Chights, Logic, Izzy, or even Bill at times

You may locate this post here: http://able2know.org/topic/176688-68#post-4831220. It seems that you have forgotten your previous whining about my attempting to innocently address your grammer and spelling problems (I can also site the pages and specific posts if you would like). I no longer really care to actually address it as a problem based on how well you took it the last time I meantioned it (see the quote below).

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

I will act responsible when I see I need to change

You may locate this post here: http://able2know.org/topic/176688-69#post-4832102. I will reuse the example stated above for this as well as the several pages in which you were whining about being called out on providing evidence to back up your claims. There is also the example where I posted about how religion can do evil and you purposefully misinterpreted as me saying that all religion is always bad (which I clearly corrected you on here: http://able2know.org/topic/176688-42#post-4801820).

Just so you are aware, no one here is trying to attack you or is out to get you. Setanta can be a little "crass" at times but never without reason (at least from all of my experiences with them). While on this site, if you make a claim or assert some truth you should expect to be asked for evidence to back up those claims. If you cannot provide evidence or will refuse to provide the evidence requested, then do not make the claim. Don't make a claim then whine about it across several pages when called out on it. If you are corrected accept it if it's valid and if it's not valid, then present reasons as to why it's not valid. This is a site for grown ups here so try and act the part (which you do most of the time, you just have occasional bouts of immaturity).

I'm also not attacking you here, kicking while you're down, trying to insult or offend you, or anything like that. I'm telling you this for your benefit as well as ours, this whole "woe is me" attitude and pretending that you're persecuted by everyone doesn't benefit anyone and distracts from real and worth while discussion. As quoted from you above I sincerly hope that you will take your own advice and act responsible to this post and see that a change needs to occur in this. I'm just stating it like it is in hope that you will see these errors and correct them appropriately. If you feel that I am wrong in these correction I only ask that you please outline them and provide your reasons as to why they are incorrect. I also humbly ask that if you (or anyone for that matter) find that I am ever incorrect on anything at all that you please address it.

How can we expect to better ourselves and grow in our knowledge, wisdom, and maturity if our faults are not addressed and corrected? For what reason should we argue for our faults or ignore what is wrong or useless?

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@Chights47,

Thank you for that...and I will take it to heart...

But just a quick question, as I think it pertains to this topic, and atheism in general....(this is meant for everyone and not solely you Chights)

What is your purpose in being here?? (if you do not wish to answer I am fine with that) My purpose is to learn as well as spread the words of God. If your convinced your right, then why do you debate about Christianity??? Is it to stronger convince yourselves of atheism? What higher purpose do you think your doing by coming on here and purposely trying to debate with someone who has a personal innate purpose? (myself, to spread God's words) What do you hope to accomplish?? Just curious, and all reply's are welcome, as I am interested in hearing this...

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@ehBeth,

My question: Do you believe it is possible, that atheists attack theists in groups on the internet??

Your response:

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No.

Cyracuz post in another thread:

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Cyracuz,

I do not know what you people are on about.
Jesus was white. Clearly.
And he spoke English.
He was a capitalist, and he was opposed to Islam.
He loved shopping and America.
God is, after all, American...

URL: http://able2know.org/topic/166295-8#post-4850760

Do you care to refine your above answer?? Or do you see that there is actually a purpose to these types of posts??? And this is in a Christian thread non the less...So what do you purpose Christians do so that they are totally away from this immature bullshit...and actually refraining from giving back the hate they receive?? How does this not also show that atheists run rampid in Christian threads as well, So that there really is no sanctity from ones who wish to persecute....apposed to Follow Christ?? and talk about spreading his words??

And then you went on to tell me...You told me, that my personal experiences are anecdotal, and meaningless...and to study atheism...So I ask you, why do I have too? Just reread above again if you need too...

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Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

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