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Rioting spreading through London & to other English cities.

 
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 05:29 am
@izzythepush,
That might help, but I'm not naive enough to believe it will solve the root problem.
I assume the UK is similar to America, in that we've bred a social class that does not have the same sense of control over their destiny as the middle class.

I won't pretend to have the answer to the problem, I will say America, at least has begun to recognize the problem to some extent.
We've implemented community corrections programs, flawed as they are, in an attempt at a solution. We're beginning to realize that extermination from society ( prison ) only exacerbates the problem.

There may be such a thing as a born criminal, but I believe the vast majority of criminals are made, not born.
It's disappointing that the powers, dealing with this present situation, are choosing to make some more.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 05:44 am
@wayne,
I think that there's not just one 'root problem'.

Secondly, the situation (in various but important aspects) is different in the UK than in other countries. And in London, and here in Tottenham especially. (For instance, London is Britain’s most unequal region by far, in terms of the income gap. And Tottenham has one of the highest unemplayment figures for youth. According to the definitive report from the New Policy Institute, 19% of the population of Inner London are in the top tenth for income nationwide while 16% are in the bottom tenth. In inner London 20% of people have 60% of the total income. )

It's easy to call for jobs - there aren't any.
What you can do, however, is giving this youth a new, different perspective; teach them to make the best out of their current situation.

That's however totally impossible with current cut's by the Conservative/Liberal government (London as well as UK):
London’s local authorities have borne much of the brunt of the Government’s austerity package – their grants from Whitehall fell by 11.3% this year and will drop a further 7.6% in 2012/13.
And the first non-essential services to be cut include youth services budgets.
wayne
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 05:52 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I think you're exactly right, I hope America takes notice.
I work on the front lines with this group here in my small part of the world. With the present economic problems, we've experienced funding cuts that threaten our existence. One problem is that our prison system is dangerously close to becoming a corporate entity.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 08:40 am
I haven't read every single post on this but I am working on it. What I'd like to know is don't people that riot like this have even the tiniest clue that by doing so they aren't any better than the ones/what, etc. they "claim" to be rioting about!?

Thank God for those working on the cleanup that they can see more clearly. I can't imagine how frightening this must be for everyone involved. I am sure they are probably seeing "faces" in the riot crowd they probably know and that can't be easy.

We can't fix anything by running around like maniacs destroying what is in our wake.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 09:54 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Now I'm wondering, as I read today about British police efforts to identify & apprehend those responsible for so much destruction, how exactly do the authorities deal with say, 10 or 11 year old vandals & thieves? It's mind boggling that children so young could be out on the streets & involved in such activities .... but how, if they are identified, should the law deal with them?
The mayor of Philadelphia has been in the news the past few days dealing with some 'flash mob' disturbances in his city. He called for a curfew (9 pm for kids under 18) and told parents in a fiery speech, "We are NOT your babysitters"!

Quote:
“Parents who neglect their children, who don’t know where they are, who don‘t know what they’re doing, who don‘t know who they’re hanging out with, you’re going to find yourself spending some quality time with your kids in jail.”


You can hear his whole speech here.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:12 am
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:
What I'd like to know is don't people that riot like this have even the tiniest clue that by doing so they aren't any better than the ones/what, etc. they "claim" to be rioting about!?


They aren't really rioting "about" anyone or anything. As somebody who walked to work the last few days past burned out cars and boarded up stores, and as somebody who has been exposed to the news and analysis of these events since they began, I can tell you that you don't seem to have grasped what is going on. The people that "riot like this", it has become clear, are mostly doing it because they have grasped the fact that by forming a mob of a couple of hundred people they could take over a shopping area and plunder the stores of high-ticket items such as large screen TVs, laptops, designer shoes and clothes and hair care products etc, without the police being able to stop them. Or so they thought. Nearly 1,000 people have been arrested so far, and the police have had a huge response from the public after they posted "Can you identify these looters?" pictures in various places on the web.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:13 am
@contrex,
So, basically they all became criminals because they could. Lovely.

I'm glad others are standing up and identifying them. Evil prospers when good men do nothing.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:37 am
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:
So, basically they all became criminals because they could. Lovely.


Any criminal becomes a criminal because she/he can do it.

But basically, "at the basic level", there's always a different reason behind it.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
True that Walter. True that.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:55 am
Written in the 1960's by Phil Ochs about urban unrest, particularly the Harlem riots of 1964

IN THE HEAT OF THE SUMMER

In the heat of the summer
When the pavements were burning
The soul of a city was ravaged in the night
After the city sun was sinkin’


Now no one knows how it started
Why the windows were shattered
But deep in the dark, someone set the spark
And then it no longer mattered.


Down the streets they were rumbling
All the tempers were ragin
Oh, where, oh, where are the white silver tongues
Who forgot to listen to the warnings?


On and on come the angry
No longer following reason
And all the stores were the target now
Where just the other day they were buyin


Drunk with the memory of the ghetto
Drunk with the lure of the looting
And the memory of the uniforms shoving with their sticks
Asking, "are you looking for trouble? "


"no, no, no," moaned the mayor.
"it’s not the way of the order.
"oh stay in your homes, please leave us alone
"we’ll be glad to talk in the morning."


"for shame, for shame," wrote the papers.
"why the hurry to your hunger?
"now the rubble’s resting on your broken streets
"so you see what your rage has unraveled."


Baricades sadly were risin
Bricks were heavily flyin
And the loudspeaker drowned like a whisperin’ sound
When compared to the angered emotions


And when the fury was over
And the shame was replacing the anger.
So wrong, so wrong, but we’ve been down so long
And we had to make somebody listen
In the heat of the summer......
Cycloptichorn
 
  5  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:22 am
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

I haven't read every single post on this but I am working on it. What I'd like to know is don't people that riot like this have even the tiniest clue that by doing so they aren't any better than the ones/what, etc. they "claim" to be rioting about!?


They don't want to be 'better' than anyone. They want to have some form of perceived equality with a class of people who are not subject to justice - bankers and rich investment houses, who have, through THEIR greed and perfidy, managed to wreck the world economy and that of England; and with no repercussions whatsoever to themselves. This is the true danger of failing to prosecute those who commit what are arguably crimes worse than murder: it destroys confidence and trust in the rule of law amongst those who are the most inclined to ignore it in the first place.

Cycloptichorn
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:32 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I was waiting for someone to bash the bankers....infact, I was surprised that it took so long....
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:34 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I completely understand what you are saying. BUT two wrongs never make a right. If we break the law to try to get someone else to stop breaking the law..........you get what is happening.......CHAOS. I understand people are frustrated and probably afraid for the future but it doesn't give them the right to loot and riot and I'm not saying you are saying it gives the right.
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:35 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:

I haven't read every single post on this but I am working on it. What I'd like to know is don't people that riot like this have even the tiniest clue that by doing so they aren't any better than the ones/what, etc. they "claim" to be rioting about!?


They don't want to be 'better' than anyone. They want to have some form of perceived equality with a class of people who are not subject to justice - bankers and rich investment houses, who have, through THEIR greed and perfidy, managed to wreck the world economy and that of England; and with no repercussions whatsoever to themselves. This is the true danger of failing to prosecute those who commit what are arguably crimes worse than murder: it destroys confidence and trust in the rule of law amongst those who are the most inclined to ignore it in the first place.

Cycloptichorn


Cycloptichorn makes a good point. To me, Prime Minister Cameron's harsh words about rioters, sounds hypocritical coming right after his own lack of accountability concerning his ties to the Murdoch Company.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:36 am
@JPB,
Wow. So eloquently stated.
0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  4  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:37 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
They don't want to be 'better' than anyone. They want to have some form of perceived equality with a class of people who are not subject to justice - bankers and rich investment houses, who have, through THEIR greed and perfidy, managed to wreck the world economy and that of England; and with no repercussions whatsoever to themselves. This is the true danger of failing to prosecute those who commit what are arguably crimes worse than murder: it destroys confidence and trust in the rule of law amongst those who are the most inclined to ignore it in the first place.



So so true, instead of trickle down economics, lets see some trickle up justice.

How many children with special needs have lost their carers, how many sick people have had their operations cancelled because of the criminal actions of greedy and corrupt politicians and bankers.
They have destroyed countless lives and communities and yet can walk away with no repercussions and mega bonuses and pay offs.

I know it's certainly no excuse for the disgusting behaviour of these thugs, but they can too can see the injustice of what has happened and can use it as an excuse for their actions.
I'm not a violent man but there are times when these politicians and bankers have made me so angry I too have felt like taking to the streets.
0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:42 am
@the prince,
The bankers were bashed on page 5 too, keep up! Smile
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:46 am
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

I completely understand what you are saying. BUT two wrongs never make a right. If we break the law to try to get someone else to stop breaking the law..........you get what is happening.......CHAOS. I understand people are frustrated and probably afraid for the future but it doesn't give them the right to loot and riot and I'm not saying you are saying it gives the right.


Yup - but it does give them some material comforts, and when you are a marginal member of society who feels completely **** on by the concept of Justice, that's better than nothing.

These folks have nothing at all to lose and their society has given them very little reason to follow the rule of law. And it's a double slap in the face to turn around and impose an Austerity plan that mostly hurts them - all while ignoring the fat-cat crooks. It's chickens coming home to roost.

I wouldn't be rioting or stealing things personally - can't say I approve of the lawlessness and I agree with your position - but anyone who thinks this is simply a matter of a bunch of criminals taking opportunities is deluding themselves.

Cycloptichorn
contrex
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:54 am
@the prince,
the prince wrote:

I was waiting for someone to bash the bankers....infact, I was surprised that it took so long....


Maybe they were too busy bashing the bishop?
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:55 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I wouldn't be rioting or stealing things personally - can't say I approve of the lawlessness and I agree with your position - but anyone who thinks this is simply a matter of a bunch of criminals taking opportunities is deluding themselves.
Cycloptichorn


Right now it is just a bunch of thugs stealing. There is a strong undercurrent of outrage at the way the ConDem government is functioning. It was that, plus a long running distrust of the police that started the whole thing off, but not now. Anarchist rioters may have attacked property in the past, but that violence was targetted, at banks and companies like Boots and Vodaphone who are avoiding huge amounts of tax. This violence was opportunist.

 

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