Rioting spreading through London & to other English cities.

Now Now!, lets leave Goldman out of it.

It's the undercurrent of discontent which allows the situation to happen in the first place. The thugs that you see in videos robbing people who are hurt aren't striking out against the bankers, for sure; but the Rule of Law has been damaged enough to the point where people feel much freer to engage in such activities than before, and that is in large part due to the incredible farce known as 'equal justice.'

Cycloptichorn

Contrex - you said exactly what I was trying to get across.

There is social unrest in this country ... I know that for sure - not just with the young, but with us... errr... older folk - re accountability etc.

However, this "rioting" is not wholly about that in my opinion. These kids aren't thinking about Murdoch and MP's expenses and all that caboodle - the inciting is coming from organised crime. The looters and arson etc - that's the mob-mentality - they get the crowd together and believe they are untouchable. A lot of the youth do these days - no different than when we were kids and as teenagers or young people we thought we were the only ones to experience things - we didn't pay mind to our parents who said they had been and experienced things before us - I don't mean in a criminal way - but anything. You see the kids these days who can work gadgets better than we can, technology is a whole different ballgame to when we were kids - the difference is - I do believe many of this generation DO believe that they know better.

As parents we can try to educate. We can try to show them the right way and "don't make the same mistakes I made" or whatever - but when you get a whole mob together who egg each other on, keeping up with their peers, thinking they are too clever to be caught - then the mob-mentality kicks in.

Not all young people would do this - a majority won't - I really believe this - these "rioters" were taking an opportunity to the be "The Big I Am" - and I hope they will soon realise that the ones who can be caught, will.

BUT - it is very clear that Joe Public is not going to tolerate this any further and Joe Public will not let all these people get away with what they've done. They may not turn their kids/friends/neighbours in - but I do think the majority will make no bones about their disgust towards those who are being "named and shamed" in the community.

These communities will rebuild - they will pull together - we still have our WWII generation, and I believe many of my generation are of the opinion that we pull together when the chips are down. We need to try and instill this in the younger generation.

I have 2 children - on both sides of this social spectrum.

When I hear the PM <grrrr> go on and on and on and on and on about parental responsibility and accountability and all that - it makes me want to throw up. The UK governments fail on so many levels - it is sickening.

The UK governments also succeed on some levels - my own (dis)abilities are proof of that in that I can get help. In the same breath - this government destroyed my family.

So I have little time to listen to the patronising and stomach churning words I hear come out of our PM's mouth.

However, we still have to pull together to make the best of what is in front of us. Yes, I would personally like to slap some people. Would I do it - I've been tempted many times - but no. There's right and wrong. That's what we have to teach these "rioters" - somehow.



They are not even aware of the bigger picture. They are just doing it for those reasons above.

Organised crime - that's a whole different matter.

I don't really believe that those in the lower socioeconomic classes, or even those in the perpetual underclass, have no control over their destiny, even if many of those youth feel as if they have little or no control. There are options and choices--to remain in school, for instance, rather than dropping out before even finishing high school. If one has a fatalistic negative view of the future, it's much more likely to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I also don't think that looking at the sociological root causes really explains what's currently going on in the U.K. Many of these looters are young teens, many appear to be Black, and most of them probably aren't criminals. They're looting at the moment simply because they're able to do so--the police can't stop them, the probability of consequences is low, and all they see is merchandise free for the taking. And it's exciting, it's fun, even starting fires and watching buildings burn can be fun when not much else of excitement is going on in your life. What we're seeing is what goes on when you remove the authority that controls social order, when you remove the fear of punishment. These young people aren't guided by internalized social values of right or wrong, they're externally controlled by fear of negative consequences, and, when that's removed, their behavior, particularly in a group, becomes opportunistic, and self-serving, and crosses into the clearly criminal.

The primary motive fueling the looting is greed, and it's most likely to occur in groups where their basic values are materialistic. And I personally don't think that's simply because these youth are the "have nots" in the larger society, I think it's something much more pernicious in this particular sub-culture where one's value and status depends on the brand of sneakers on your feet, or the video game system you own, rather than the grades you get in school or some other indication of personal accomplishment.

And where are these kids parents when their children are out looting? Are they also out grabbing things off the shelves? Will they chastise their child if he comes home with a flat screen TV, or will they just plug it in and enjoy it? Before we blame society, or the economy, or cuts in services to the disadvantaged, or a lot of other root causes, shouldn't we also look at the families these youth come from, and the values they impart to their children, whether implicitly or explicitly, particularly regarding personal responsibility? If these were middle-class kids running amuck we sure would be blaming the parents, so how come the parents of these lower class kids seem to get a pass when it comes to the actions of their children?

By no means am I unsympathetic, or unconcerned, about the very real hardships, and challenges, and lack of opportunity, that go along with being part of an economically disadvantaged group or underclass. Nor am I fully aware of the situation in the U.K., which might be very different from what I am most familiar with in the U.S.. But I don't think that a good deal of what we are witnessing in the U.K. right now, at least with respect to the looting, is necessarily an expression of anything more than opportunistic greed--sort of like wide-scale shop-lifting--"I see it, I want it, and, if I don't think I'll be caught, I take it"--with no mediating conscience to control these actions. And, it's the lack of that mediating conscience, and a misplaced sense of entitlement at the expense of innocent people, that's the real problem here, and that's why we must clearly label this as criminal behavior, without also seeking to excuse it in some way. Innocent people are being hurt, their homes and businesses, and livelihoods, and property are being destroyed. There is nothing about that to warrant excuses. Being poor does not entitle you to take what others have worked hard to obtain. Being angry does not entitle you to burn and destroy what belongs to others. There is no excuse for any of this.

While I totally agree that those youths are rioters, not protesters, I sincerely question if they are 'incited' by organised crime.
Of course, Colombian, Italian, Chinese, Russian, Jamaican ... gangsters are doing business in London, Manchester, and elsewhere.
But do you really think that they are the leading force(s) behind these youngsters?

I agree, no mafia style influence here.

More like small time opportunistic gangs.

Hear, hear firefly, I agree with everything you said, except this
'and most of them probably aren't criminals',
because in my opinion, the minute one engages in criminal behavior - one becomes a criminal.
It doesn't matter if someone is acting criminally within a large group of people or on one's own, if someone engages in criminal behavior they're a criminal.

The British people I work with at the prison all state that they feel that this generation of young people feel and act entitled and want the entitlements, but without the accompanying responsibility.

I've not heard anyone make any excuses for these 'criminals'.

Interestingly, or perhaps predictably, yesterday brought an act of vandalism that flooded the education wing (one of the water pipes under pressure was torn from the ceiling and the library was flooded) and today a fire was set in a closed and locked building filled with people- most of whom didn't have the keys to get out. I believe that's called arson - isn't it- or has the definition been changed - is it called protest now?
A screw driver went missing today and the guards on all the wings are doing their jobs tonight with the knowledge that any one of them may be injured or worse.

Would anyone excuse these men for engaging in criminal behavior because they're oppressed (as criminals who have been caught as opposed to the criminals we see on the street who are engaging in similar behavior but have yet to be caught) or because they see others doing it and getting away with it?

That's ridiculous.

English, Scottish... etc - all countries - plus the general anarchists (I can't think of the right words to use) who use any excuse to incite uproar into the society.

They come out with the peaceful protests - they demolish, destroy, take down everything that a civilised society attempts to build.

Yes, exactly, the organised crime I am talking about are the gangs. During these incidents - the "ganglands" came together - who stole what, how much, which gang did the most damage etc. It became a competition amongst the gangs on who caused the most problems.

The Mark Duggan shooting was the catalyst.

When turmoil started breaking out - the gangs seemed to come together to try and outdo each other.

All against the country.

There was no moral responsibility - it didn't matter if they were different gangs - they starting conversing through social media etc - who could do their worst. The bragging is unbelievable!

The rest of the mob I believe were outside of this organisation. They tagged along for the Big I Am party.


Of course, this is only my opinion. No sources - just my opinion.

And you actually can prove that when you look at the kind of shop which were looted:
• no banks were robbed,
• no luxury high street shops
• ... .... ...
(And no 'political messages' were send out either.)

It's just that they get what is advertised. And a surplus as well.

This by very sad, criminal methods.

Well, there was one Armani shop.. sorry no link, but generally what you and ecy are saying I'm agreeing with.

I mentioned somewhere on one of these threads that part of the looting is by people who generally can't at all afford to buy 'stuff', and find themselves in, or get themselves into a situation where they can make getting stuff happen, as a group that they are then part of. Whether or not it's orchestrated by local or regional gangs, I don't know, but that's why I mentioned to Izzie, I think on the British Thread II, that I'd be interested to find who sent those early blackberry messages I'd read about (not that I know that those would be properly accessible re privacy concerns, just wondering). I had added that as an edit to a post, so I don't know if Izzie saw that.

Oh, I agree with you about that, aidan.

What I meant was that many, or even most, of the young people doing these things now might not have engaged in criminal behaviors before this looting. I certainly do consider their behavior criminal now.

I actually live most of the time in Perpignan, I'm back in Britain for a couple of months, and I can't wait to get back to Languedoc-Roussillon. There were some Maghrebin vs. Gitan (N. African vs. Gipsy) riots there a few years ago, but the food (and climate!) is better. In an article about people taking steps to defend their districts, "Le Monde" says that UK Amazon's sales of aluminium baseball bats (£17.99) have increased by 4,300% in the last few days, and a similar increase is seen in the numbers of "matraques téléscopiques" sold...

The Blackberry service is a closed messaging service as I understand it. In other words, only folk with Blackberries could read the messages sent within the system.

(I don't have one so don't know how they work )

http://www.itworld.com/security/192107/rioters-coordinating-blackberry-convicted-blackberry

The folk who incited this will also be caught with this system.

Thing is Osso - a lot of these people (young and older) who 'can't afford to buy stuff' do own Blackberries and designer labels and all that. That's part of the peer culture and half the problem.

Okay, if you count that as a circumstantial evidence ...




London riots: how BlackBerry Messenger played a key role

I know what you're saying firefly, but I guess I don't believe that someone who is not criminally inclined and who would not engage in criminal behavior could not be enticed to because everyone else was doing it or because they thought they could get away with it.

Someone who could be enticed to engage in criminal behavior by someone else's behavior or because they thought they could get away with it, is criminally inclined, in fact, little more than a criminal waiting to happen, in my opinion- or criminally opportunist.

Yep, taken from the source you linked

"Dead the ends and colour war for now so if you see a brother... SALUT! if you see a fed... SHOOT!"

I believe, 'Dead the ends' means GANGS

'I know what you're saying firefly, but I guess I don't believe that someone who is not criminally inclined and who would not engage in criminal behavior could not be enticed to because everyone else was doing it or because they thought they could get away with it.'

I meant to say that I don't believe that someone who is not criminally inclined to could be enticed to engage in criminal behavior.



URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-4696025

That's also what I meant when I said that segment of society is motivated by materialistic, and very short-sighted, values--owning that Blackberry or designer label is more important than getting a high school diploma--owning those things conveys status in that peer group, even through that sort of status is meaningless in the long run and the diploma is a way out of poverty.

On one street of looted shops the only store untouched was the bookstore. That alone says something.

Yes, I suppose that's true.

I would disagree Aidan. I think a lot of young people who are caught up in the moment, so to speak, could be enticed to engage in criminal behaviour. They may not ordinarily do criminal acts - but in these kind of incidents, and others, they do.

Sad as that may be, I do believe that some kids will do that. No-one is perfect no matter how "good" we think our children are. I don't think I know one person who has never done something wrong - excepting little kids. Have you ever gone over 70mph on the motorway? That's a crime.

It's very easy for us to say "walk away" and "say no" - but a lot of those kids probably don't feel they can. I would have thought that in the environment that you work in that you would see this a great deal. Certainly, there are gangs in prisons.