42
   

Rioting spreading through London & to other English cities.

 
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2011 06:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
I never claimed to be a 'leftist.' I'm a socialist, you don't seem to understand what socialism is.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2011 07:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The assets of the society always belong to the collective, and while we allow individuals to hold the assets we are always free to reposes them. This being the case I am not willing to assume that a theft has taken place, we require a hearing on the matter.

Who's the "we" you are talking about--mobs of self-interested looters, grabbing and destroying property that doesn't belong to them, and that they have no right to take or burn?

Don't you ever connect to reality?

These people are destroying other people's livelihoods, businesses, and property. Some of them are even stealing from individuals who have been injured on the street. What the hell does that have to do with the "assets of society"?

They are also costing their fellow citizens a fortune in terms of damage, and loss, and the attempts to deal with it, at a time when the economy, and many of those people, can ill afford it. And you're "not willing to assume that a theft has taken place"?

Try empathasizing with the small business owner whose store has been smashed up and his inventory looted--like the tearful ccouple I saw on the news tonight who just kept asking, "Why?" These people didn't deserve what was done to them, and their lives, by a mob that was motivated primarily by greed.

This kind of violence, and theft, and destruction, is heart-breaking to see and it's senseless and mindless.
Quote:
LONDON — With 10,000 additional police officers deployed across London on Tuesday night, looting and arson dipped sharply from the anarchic scenes that shook Britain over the previous three days, even as violence ticked up again in several other major cities, including Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool.

Hopes that the worst unrest in Britain in a generation had crested and begun to fall continued to weigh uneasily against fears that more robust police action might fail to put more than a temporary curb on the disorder. Sudden flare-ups continued in parts of London, with minor attacks reaching even into the upscale Knightsbridge shopping district, a major tourist draw.

With a decision not to call in the army, a step the government considered and dismissed on Tuesday, the police force appeared to be stretched near its limit by what amounted to a risky shell game, with forces outside London sending their crack antiriot units into the capital as reinforcements. One redeployed unit traveled from Manchester only hours before scores of youths stormed into that city’s center, setting fire to cars and buildings and looting shops.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/world/europe/10britain.html?hp


Are you saying that the people who are being victimized by these thugs have no right to be demanding a more immediate and effective response from their government? Are your sympathies only with those engaging in criminal actions?

roger
 
  3  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2011 08:10 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Don't you ever connect to reality?


It is a kind of hit or miss proposition.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -4  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2011 08:38 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Are you saying that the people who are being victimized by these thugs have no right to be demanding a more immediate and effective response from their government? Are your sympathies only with those engaging in criminal actions?
We the citizens have been victimized by government and corporate class oppression, we are all victims so you will not get far trotting out to me someone and saying "here is a victim,we must feel sorry for them and give them what the want". I feel sorry for those who are in their homes scared and I feel sorry for those who are on the streets rioting.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2011 11:45 pm
Thanks especially to A2K UK posters. We have been bombarded with so much information, from London to Manchester, via our news media. It has been really helpful, in trying to make sense of what's happened & why, to read your comments.

Now I'm wondering, as I read today about British police efforts to identify & apprehend those responsible for so much destruction, how exactly do the authorities deal with say, 10 or 11 year old vandals & thieves? It's mind boggling that children so young could be out on the streets & involved in such activities .... but how, if they are identified, should the law deal with them?
Pretty depressing stuff.
But anyway,we shall see what eventuates.

Here's a cartoon from one of our Oz cartoonists.
Any other cartoon commentary, from the UK or other countries, would be much appreciated.

http://images.theage.com.au/2011/08/10/2547338/Moirwed-620x0.jpg
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 12:02 am
@msolga,
Quote:
But this is not from lack of desire, only lack of money. If success is defined as a 42-inch plasma TV, then a riot is simply a path to success for the impoverished. As an op-ed writer in The Guardian observed, the London riot has taken place in "a country in which the richest 10 per cent are now 100 times better off than the poorest... social mobility is worse than any other developed country." And a BBC News item taped two young women, drinking looted rosé wine, who said they were "showing the rich we can do what we want."

What they really want, of course, is to feel themselves the equals of their fellow-citizens. Better said, their fellow-consumers of wine and electronics. They accept the status quo, except that they're not getting their share of it.

London Mayor Boris Johnson has explicitly rejected this thesis, preferring to find the riots' cause in mere criminality. Others will blame the rioters' blackness, or foreignness, or class. In short, like looters, we will all take what we want from the riots.

And when the fires are finally out, some of us will sit down to watch bad programs on our new TVs, and some of us will justify the hiring of more police, or pass new anti-immigrant laws, or march in the streets in support of equality. Life will go on, and so will the riots.

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/08/10/LondonRiots/

Be it Libya, Syria, Tunisia, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Yemen, or London, what we are looking at is the have not objecting to their oppression. We will soon see this in the USA as well.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 12:31 am
@hawkeye10,
I have no problem at all with accepting the argument that the poor (in so many countries, including Britain) deserve a better deal.
But I would argue that there's a huge difference between the struggle to achieve the most basic human rights and the "right" to a 42 inch plasma TV.
No one ever died from having an out-of-date tv. (I certainly haven't!)
It is tragic that people in the middle east have died in the struggle to achieve the basic human rights which many of us take for granted.
To argue that the the two situations are the same, or similar, is offensive, say nothing of misguided.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 12:41 am
@msolga,
Quote:
But I would argue that there's a huge difference between the struggle to achieve the most basic human rights and the "right" to a 42 inch plasma TV.
No one ever died from having an out-of-date tv. (I certainly haven't!)
I see, so the oppressed in the most wealthy nations in the world need to be just as bad off as the oppressed in the poorest nations before you grant them the right to rise up against their oppressors with violence....unless they can pass this bar they are common criminals. Interesting . Others might think that the goal is to have the rights and privileges commonly awarded to ones own countrymen, that it is the degree of deviation of ones life from the privileged class of their country not of the privileged class of the worst places on earth that justifies objection, and if remedies are not found violent revolution.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one I think.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 01:02 am
@hawkeye10,
I was disagreeing with your interpretation of what's happening in Britain right now & the fight against oppression in the middle east.
Quote:
Be it Libya, Syria, Tunisia, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Yemen, or London, what we are looking at is the have not objecting to their oppression. We will soon see this in the USA as well.

And I've said pretty much all I've wanted to say about it.
Yes, let's get back to the thread subject & agree to disagree.

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 01:05 am
Just found another Oz cartoonist's comment:

http://images.theage.com.au/2011/08/10/2547454/Leunig-riots-Aug-10-600x400.jpg
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 01:09 am
@msolga,
Quote:
And I've said pretty much all I've wanted to say about it.
Yes, let's get back to the thread subject & agree to disagree
It is pretty damn interesting dont you think that all we hear is that these are a bunch of petty hooligan criminals, which is the line from the government, but so far any journalism effort to find out who these people are who are sitting in the jailsw or other confinement and what they thought they were doing has been slim to none? Why the lack of interest? Are we supposed to assume that the government is telling us the truth and not think or look any further?

I think this story of the Journalists failing to do their jobs will get bigger. We have already had a running conversation on A2K over the last year about how badly the BBC now sucks, and we have also had a running (more so lately) conversation about how the properties of Murdoch MEGACORP suck. Are there any Journalists remaining in the UK?? I dont know the answer, but so far an affirmative answer is looking damn iffy.
msolga
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 01:20 am
@hawkeye10,
Look, you said you thought we should agree to disagree.
And I'm perfectly happy with that arrangement.
Quote:
Why the lack of interest?

There is no lack of interest on my part. I instigated this thread because I was interested in what was occurring in London & other English cities & wanted to hear more about British posters' perspectives.

If there is any lack of interest on my part it's toward pursuing your dubious "theories".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 01:41 am
Quote:
[Last night,] there has been serious disorder in a number of towns and cities across England, including Manchester, Birmingham, West Bromwich, Gloucester and Birmingham.
[...]
It seems that the disorder has shocked Gloucester, a picturesque cathedral city near the Welsh border, and a place that you wouldn't associate with this kind of trouble.


From the Guardian's news blog UK riots: day four aftermath live
the prince
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 01:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It got pretty hairy for me last night. Scores of Millwall fans turned up to "protect" a high street near my house; as a result the rioting youths were running through my and surrounding roads, with police vans, sirens screaming, chasing them !!

<shudder>
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 01:57 am
Can Economic Factors Explain The Riots?

Quote:
There's no one root cause for the riots across the country, but a range of economic indicators often associated with social unrest have been on the rise for some time.
Youth numbers ballooning

Britain is undergoing an enormous demographic shift - the consequences of which few people yet understand.

There are a million more 15-24 year olds in Britain today than a decade ago, and it's striking that those taking part in these riots are almost all in this age cohort.

Bear in mind that the last time this group was so large was in the early 1980s (in fact it was actually a million people higher at that point).

Record (LSE: REC.L - news) levels of youth unemployment

The number of out-of-work young people (which excludes those in education) is at the highest level since records began in 1992.

This isn't just a 2008 recession problem: youth unemployment has been on the rise for many years - though this was exacerbated by the crisis.

But London isn't the worst-affected by youth unemployment - the figures are far worse in parts of Wales and the North East.

Unprecedented levels of inequality

London is Britain's most unequal region by far, in terms of the income gap.

According to the definitive report from the New Policy Institute, 19% of the population of Inner London are in the top tenth for income nationwide while 16% are in the bottom tenth.

In inner London 20% of people have 60% of the total income.

Add this to the fact that overall UK inequality levels have risen to the highest levels since the 1960s (or alternatively the 1930s, depending on whose statistics you trust).

It's notable that many of the areas affected by the rioting are within touching distance of poorer areas, as is the case in Tottenham where the rioting began.

Benefits-dependent households

London has a high and growing proportion of families entirely dependent on benefits

According to a recent European Union study, there are 600,000 people under 25 in Britain who have never had a day's work in their lives.

An NPI map shows that these households are largely to be found in the inner city north and eastern areas, many of which have been hit by the riots

Austerity

London's local authorities have borne much of the brunt of the Government's austerity package - their grants from Whitehall fell by 11.3% this year and will drop a further 7.6% in 2012/13.

And the first non-essential services to be cut include youth services budgets - Haringey's was slashed by 75% leading to the closure of youth clubs.

Now, clearly there are plenty of other factors behind the riots - moreover, none of the above explains precisely why this chaos has erupted here and now.

But they underline the fact that in economic and social terms, London has been a tinderbox for some time.

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Can-Economic-Factors-Explain-skynews-3052906705.html?x=0
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 02:09 am
@hawkeye10,
An interesting screed from the right talking about the same situation in the UK that I am, but in this case laying the blame on indulgent liberalism where as I come at it from the left and claim that the problem is oppression.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html?ITO=1490
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 03:02 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

I think this story of the Journalists failing to do their jobs will get bigger. We have already had a running conversation on A2K over the last year about how badly the BBC now sucks, and we have also had a running (more so lately) conversation about how the properties of Murdoch MEGACORP suck. Are there any Journalists remaining in the UK?? I dont know the answer, but so far an affirmative answer is looking damn iffy.


The BBC is one of the finest news corporations in the World. People trust it like no other. The Guardian brought the Murdoch scandal to the public's attention. You know **** All.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 03:23 am
@msolga,

Quote:
Any other cartoon commentary, from the UK or other countries, would be much appreciated.


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/8/8/1312826249812/09.08.11-Martin-Rowson-on-006.jpg
wayne
 
  4  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:28 am
I tend to disagree with the characterization that this is just a bunch of criminals taking advantage for personal gain.
That characterization is based on the idea that protest and the expression of social frustration should follow preconceived notions of form.

The fact that that is how the situation will be dealt with, only ensures the problem won't be dealt with and will occur again in the future.
Characterizing a social group as criminal by their actions, rather than motives, is a bad move that contributes to the formation of sub-cultures. The actions, in this case, may be criminal but the motivating factor is extreme frustration.

Anarchy is the expression of extreme frustration and powerlessness, according to the maxim " misery loves company".
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:57 am
@wayne,
wayne wrote:

The fact that that is how the situation will be dealt with, only ensures the problem won't be dealt with and will occur again in the future.


It will occur again until the Condems are kicked out. The next big test is the London Mayoral elections. The current mayor is a buffoon.
 

Related Topics

T'Pring is Dead - Discussion by Brandon9000
Another Calif. shooting spree: 4 dead - Discussion by Lustig Andrei
Friends don't let friends fat-talk - Discussion by hawkeye10
Before you criticize the media - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Fatal Baloon Accident - Discussion by 33export
The Day Ferguson Cops Were Caught in a Bloody Lie - Discussion by bobsal u1553115
Robin Williams is dead - Discussion by Butrflynet
 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 5.65 seconds on 10/19/2021 at 12:40:45