42
   

Rioting spreading through London & to other English cities.

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2011 06:27 pm
@Izzie,
Very Happy
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2011 06:38 pm
Thanks for putting in the Bratton link, MsO. At the time I read it I was in a lull re posting and didn't get back to it, but as said earlier, I'm interested - he may or may not be important. As it says in the article, there are certain reservations held by police in England and they may be right, dunno.

I know about him and think his changes did a lot of good - on the other hand, I moved, and have not followed up on pros and cons re him, in LA, much less about his time in New York and Boston.

Not that my watching him would scare him, he's a toughy.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2011 07:33 pm
@ossobuco,
Knowing next to nothing about the man, osso, it's hard to comment on his previous success in the US.
What sorts of changes did he introduce in LA & NY?

To me it's seems an odd state of affairs, though, for Scotland Yard to be in the process of looking for a new chief commissioner at the same time as the British PM appears to be consulting someone who is ineligible for the top job (but wanted it) at the same time. What if the new chief commissioner & Mr Bratton have very different ideas on how the police force should be run, "law & order" issues, etc ..? I'm not suggesting that you should answer that question yourself, just expressing my concern.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2011 09:39 pm
@McTag,
David wrote:
Did u SEE the presentation video ????
It is not at all likely that McTag did, either.
McTag wrote:
I watched it. I saw a glib, smarmy, snake-oil salesman.
I dunno what smarm is; maybe English snake oil??
Mr. McTag: Y don 't u do the OPPOSITE
of his advice and see how that works out??




McTag wrote:
And by the way, he was describing interviews of suspects after a crime had been committed,
which we were not talking about at all. Apples and oranges.
I see. U prefer that the police interview suspects
BEFORE crimes have been committed.
Is that how thay do it in England ???????
How do thay craft their interrogation strategies qua the yet uncommitted crimes ?





David
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2011 10:07 pm
@msolga,
The article explained that, unless I'm confused and remembering some other article.

I do think Bratton and Cameron would differ, thus one of my posts many pages ago, re Bratton lecturing him, and that potentially being useful, at the same time I worried about Bratton going into the security business since his commissioner days. I don't know how many pages back it is, maybe twenty by now.

Maybe Izzy will remember that episode.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 02:18 am
@ossobuco,
I do remember it, despite being so forgetful. Right at the beginning, I think I said that I thought Cameron will try to do it on the cheap. Brattan has been mentioned quite a few times by Cameron, even before the riots began. Cameron would like this to be seen as an example of 'blue-sky' thinking, but I'm afraid most people will see it as a gimmick.

Under the Thatch, the Tories were always seen as the law and order party, most policemen were natural Tory voters. What is happening now is a real sea change, even the Tory mayor Boris, fearful of his own electoral prospects in May, has attacked Cameron's plans to cut the police.

Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 03:42 am
@izzythepush,
Sitting here listening to Cameron's live speech

I really feel sick to my stomach

I hope there will a transcript of what he said.

Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 04:08 am
@Izzie,
Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

Agreeing with Ed Miliband in his speech (taking out the political score points) - need his transcript too Shocked



0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 05:31 am
@Izzie,

Cameron scares me a bit. He radiates that conviction and zeal that was Tony Blair's hallmark.
In fact I think he models himself on Blair.

When you can fake sincerity, you've cracked it.

Anyway judging by today's speech, he's given his party quite a programme.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 05:59 am
@McTag,
All bullshit.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 06:16 am
@McTag,
Has he revealed any of the details which will address this "moral collapse" in Britain?
What actions his government will take?
All I can see in this article is a resolve to toughen up conditions for those receiving unemployment & other benefits, a "national citizens service" (not sure what that means, exactly) to be available to all 16 year olds, less paperwork for police & more time on the streets & a lot of rhetoric about discipline, standard, teamwork, duty, ...etc....


Quote:
David Cameron on riots: broken society is top of my political agenda
Allegra Stratton, political correspondent
guardian.co.uk, Monday 15 August 2011 12.10 BST


Prime minister delivers a speech describing last week's rioting a 'wake-up call' for the country and says ministers will ensure policies address the causes of 'broken Britain'

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Politics/Pix/pictures/2011/8/15/1313406605009/David-Cameron-makes-a-spe-007.jpg
David Cameron makes a speech at a youth centre in Witney, Oxfordshire. Photograph: Alastair Grant/AP

David Cameron pledged his government would "turn around the lives of the 120,000 most troubled families" by the next election as he said his broken society analysis is "back at the top of my political agenda".

He made the ambitious commitment in a speech delivered on Monday at a youth centre in his Witney constituency in Oxfordshire, in which he described the rioting as a "wake-up call" for the country. He said his ministers would use the summer to ensure their departments' policies address the causes of broken Britain.


The government has assessed there are 120,000 families across the UK that cause much of the disturbance in communities across the country – and he is now to use the government's success in turning around their lives as a benchmark against which he should be judged in 2015.

Cameron made the pledge as he reasserted his analysis that Britain is broken, but he joined Ed Miliband in drawing a link between the riots, and recent scandals in banking, parliament and journalism, his words almost precisely mirroring those of the Labour leader.

Cameron said: "In the banking crisis, with MPs' expenses, in the phone-hacking scandal, we have seen some of the worst cases of greed, irresponsibility and entitlement. The restoration of responsibility has to cut right across our society.

"Do we have the determination to confront the slow-motion moral collapse that has taken place in parts of our country these past few generations?

"Irresponsibility. Selfishness. Behaving as if your choices have no consequences. Children without fathers. Schools without discipline. Reward without effort.

"Crime without punishment. Rights without responsibilities. Communities without control. Some of the worst aspects of human nature tolerated, indulged – sometimes even incentivised – by a state and its agencies that in parts have become literally de-moralised.

"So do we have the determination to confront all this and turn it around? I have the very strong sense that the responsible majority of people in this country not only have that determination; they are crying out for their government to act upon it. And I can assure you, I will not be found wanting."

He rehearsed many of the policies the government already has underway that he hopes will help to improve conditions in which children are raised to drain the conditions for rioting in future, but he suggested in many areas he wanted his ministers to go further.

The government is bringing in a national citizens service and Cameron said he wanted to make it available to all 16-year-olds: "Teamwork, discipline, duty, decency: these might sound old-fashioned words but they are part of the solution to this very modern problem of alienated, angry young people."

City academies which he said would have higher expectations of discipline and standards. "If young people have left school without being able to read or write, why shouldn't that school be held more directly accountable? Yes, these questions are already being asked across government but what happened last week gives them a new urgency – and we need to act on it."

Cameron said he wanted to look at making tougher the welfare reform bill going through parliament. "I'm not satisfied that we're doing all we can. I want us to look at toughening up the conditions for those who are out of work and receiving benefits … and speeding up our efforts to get all those who can work back to work."

The home secretary, Theresa May, would be setting out on Tuesday how the government intended to overhaul policing to enable them to do less paperwork and spend more time on the beat.

Cameron also suggested the government would redouble its efforts to renegotiate the relationship between British and European law whereby the government has often felt thwarted by the EU in implementing some of its policies.

He said his government would look at the "twisting and misrepresenting of human rights that has undermined personal responsibility" and the "obsession with health and safety that has eroded people's willingness to act according to common sense".

Nonetheless, he said he had now ordered his ministers to conduct a review of all their departments' policies to ensure they are helping ameliorate what Cameron described as a "moral collapse".

Setting out his central argument, Cameron said: "As we begin the necessary processes of inquiry, investigation, listening and learning, let's be clear: these riots were not about race: the perpetrators and the victims were white, black and Asian.

"These riots were not about government cuts: they were directed at high street stores, not parliament. And these riots were not about poverty: that insults the millions of people who, whatever the hardship, would never dream of making others suffer like this. No, this was about behaviour.

"People showing indifference to right and wrong. People with a twisted moral code. People with a complete absence of self-restraint.

"Now I know as soon as I use words like 'behaviour' and 'moral' people will say – what gives politicians the right to lecture us? Of course we're not perfect. But politicians shying away from speaking the truth about behaviour, about morality. This has actually helped to cause the social problems we see around us."

Cameron has honed this thesis over the last five years but he is, in the words of one aide, seeking to "re-energise" his ministers in the face of opinion polls suggesting the public believe his response to the riots was unconvincing, and that he has not fully understood the causes.

He addressed head on the attack made in a speech by the leader of the opposition on Monday morning in which Miliband said the difference between the pair's positions was that Cameron believed a "culture" of depravity led some people to riot, while Miliband believed issues of social deprivation needed to be considered as a context but not as an excuse.

Cameron said politicians must be braver in addressing decades of erosion of social values rather than clinging to moral "relativism".

While there were local triggers, most of the disturbances had been down to "criminality" and "indifference to right and wrong".

He said: "In my very first act as leader, I signalled my personal priority: to mend our broken society – that passion is stronger today than ever.

"Social problems that have been festering for decades have exploded in our face," he said.

"Now, just as people wanted criminals robustly confronted on our street, so they want to see these problems taken on and defeated.

"Our security fightback must be matched by a social fightback. We must fight back against the attitudes and assumptions that have brought parts of our society to this shocking state."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/15/david-cameron-riots-broken-society
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 06:59 am
@msolga,
Cameron is a toff. He knows how to deal with fellow toffs, and has a patrician attitude to the rest of us. He is clearly out of his depth when he has to deal with ordinary people. Unfortunately, he seems to believe his own rhetoric. I always have believed that a good approach to any problem is the use of both carrots and sticks. Just using one will not get the desired outcome. Anyway here is the interview with Bratton from todays Grauniad.

Quote:
The more Bill Bratton talks about leadership and the ability of police not just to transform themselves but to lead change in society, it becomes clearer to see what attracted him to David Cameron. It is not just a change of policing culture he is advocating, it is also about the style of leadership and having political nous.

If a politician's mandate is that he has to improve policing within budgetary constraints, that is what William J Bratton will do. He says he has done it before, in Boston, New York and Los Angeles. If he has to build alliances with police critics in the community, he has done that as well.

But Bratton is not just idly boasting about being a "transformational leader". Given his track record in the United States turning around big city police departments from struggling entities to successful forces, he feels he could do the same in Britain, if he was allowed to.

The image of Bratton in Britain so far is of a zero-tolerance, tough-talking police leader, in keeping with an image that US police are gun toting and far more militaristic than their British equivalent. It's a Robocop model versus Dixon of Dock Green, seemingly. But Bratton's style and declared values suggest a more nuanced police leader. When he left the Los Angeles police department in 2009, after seven years at its helm, his passing was lamented by the once mortal enemy of police there, the American Civil Liberties Union. For years it had fought and sued the LAPD, but Bratton slashed the number of annual complaints.

Bratton is known for "broken window theory" policing, meaning even small infractions led to arrests because that gives a strident message crime will not be tolerated. But he insists a significant part in crime reduction was the "progressive" idea of community policing, which takes officers out of cars and to get to know their communities and their differing concerns, and stresses the need for partnerships.

Bratton said: "Community policing was a significant catalyst in the turnaround in crime." This claim is supported by Fernando Guerra, director of the Leavey Centre for the Study of Los Angeles, who told the LA Times. "That to me is the ultimate in community policing, where the community is given the benefit of the doubt first, and the police had to justify their actions."

After leaving Los Angeles, Bratton became chair of the private security company Kroll. Speaking from New York, he told the Guardian that policing could do more than just make streets safer, it could lead societal change: "Nobody can change race relations, society and public fears faster than the police.

"You need to address these issues all at the same time, not piecemeal. Police need to be inclusive, transparent and available, not parochial, exclusive and nontransparent."

He makes no apologies for clamping down on crime, but insists he can do this and protect civil liberties. Bratton said: "I'm a progressive. I'm an advocate of gay and human rights, and of illegal immigrants being treated in humane ways. I'm issues focused. I believe the role of the police is critical to the protection and advocacy of human rights."

He can challenge existing police culture to make the service more open for minority groups, which in turn helps boost confidence in the police. Bratton said: "In New York and LAPD the promotion path was open for women and ethnic minorities. They became more representative of the minority composition of the city." He added that there was "no glass ceiling for anyone", including gay people and transvestites.

The British interest in him has reignited media interest in him across the Atlantic. Bratton points to a weekend New York Times piece which found that he helped change the racial makeup of the LAPD. The piece said: "In 1991, the year of the [Rodney] King beating, the department was 61% white and 87% male. As of last month, it was 36% white and 81% male."

The former Los Angeles mayor James Hahn told the newspaper Bratton made big promises, which he kept. Hahn recalled Bratton's claims in his interview to become LA's police chief. "He also said, 'I can bring crime down in your city by 25%, and if not I'll resign.' That was an offer I could not refuse."

Bratton says policing in the US failed in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, believing crime was so ingrained it could not be challenged: "The cause of crime is human behaviour. In a democratic society the police are charged with controlling human behaviour," Bratton said.

He said it must be done "constitutionally, compassionately and consistently", across all ethnic and socioeconomic groups.

Bratton said that British police are not alone in suffering budget cuts; other agencies which help tackle discontent will also suffer losses: "It's quite obvious that there will be reductions not just for policing but for social services that ameliorate dissatisfaction."

Bratton may have impressed civil liberties advocates in the US, but British police chiefs are considerably more sceptical. One told the Guardian: "He made a career going around the world to conferences, he only spent 20 months in New York." London mayor Boris Johnson told Sky News: "His particular success in tackling crime in New York was very much down to a huge ramp up in numbers, up from about 30,000 to 42,000 officers on the streets."

Bratton has been monitoring the row between the government and British police chiefs. He was ousted from leading the New York police after falling out with the city mayor, Rudy Giuliani. Bratton said: "It's a very interesting situation to watch where people can feel comfortable to speak their minds.

"British chiefs have more ability to speak out against government. In the US most police chiefs are appointed by a mayor, if they don't get along, the police chief will not last very long."

He said politicians have the right to "inquire and seek to encourage", but he believes in operational independence.

Having been thwarted in his attempts to clear the path for Bratton to apply for the commissionership of the Met, the prime minister has recruited him to advise on gangs. This again has irked British police chiefs who feel it denigrates their successes. A senior officer said British police had regularly gone to the US to plunder tactics to tackle gangs, and had been so successful that the US was now sending their officers over here to learn about Britain's successes.

That fact explains Sir Hugh Orde's frustration at Cameron bringing Bratton over. Orde, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, told the Independent on Sunday: "I am not sure I want to learn about gangs from an area of America that has 400 of them. It seems to me, if you've got 400 gangs, then you're not being very effective. If you look at the style of policing in the states, and their levels of violence, they are fundamentally different from here."

Bratton says he is honoured to be asked to help and may be in London to meet the prime minister this week.

"I'm not coming in with the only bag of tricks in town," he says, adding that when it comes to gangs the US has many similarities with the UK – gangs "promote violence and fear, can destroy neighbourhoods", and will create "more violence unless forcefully challenged".

Bratton said a series of creative programmes led to success in Los Angeles: "It has to be a comprehensive set of initiatives, it can't be piecemeal." He also said police chiefs need to look the world over for ideas: "Anyone who looks only inwards is not going to be as successful as someone who looks outside, the world over. It's a big world out there."

Bratton said Britain was correctly dealing with the aftermath of the riots, using the criminal justice system to arrest and jail those responsible, and then maybe dealing with underlying issues: "The criminal behaviour, you have to focus on dealing with that first and it sounds like you are doing that. Violence can never be excused in a democratic society. When you engage in violence that is not democracy, that is anarchy."
McTag
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 10:11 am
@izzythepush,

Very good interview with David Lammy MP in the G2 Section today.

Lammy is black, and is the member of parliament for Tottenham.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/14/david-lammy-tottenham-mark-duggan
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 12:57 pm
@McTag,
I don't know about you lot but I feel like I'm swimming through a bay of medium density cotton wool impregnated with a low-stick glue. Getting to grips with the Cameron spiel, the Bratton feechewer and the Lammy gems--get the "svelte and urbane, smart suit, flawlessly ironed white shirt, designer glasses" to measure the canyons of the vanity-- is impossible.

When psychoanalysis first came on the scene the dream was to remove the disarray within the human organism which led to the manifestation of a wide range of different symptoms. The acne, the tuberculosis and the sporting injury derived from the same root was the grand claim.

One might look over a lawn full of daisies and each one is perfect. Or a nest of ants.

Then pharmacology found a way of treating all these symptoms, more and more successfully, and vast industries were founded. The dream of psychoanalysis was sidelined. Treat the symptoms all of which were provided with suitably terrorising labels. Once these became established vast numbers of people were vested in the disarray. Bombing Libyans, Iraqis and Afghans with enthusiasm and going all weepy when a kid get his backpack pilfered.

And they were well organised. They had Media at their fingertips. The PR department. That they were providing themselves with a dose of the disarray, what Ivan Illich called a general "sub-lethal illness", was no longer a consideration. It had gone beyond being sidelined. It was on Ignore. Just as the typhoid well had been in its day.

Are we witnessing a sociological re-run? London having bellowed for attention and the rest of our land watches as the palliatives are applied each one hoping to spawn a new bureaucracy. Schizophrenia in glutinous mass form. The Command Centre of the disarray is in intensive care.

Did you know that Clegg's constituency is in the top two richest in the country. Sheffield Hallam. A rival to Kensington and Chelsea.

What happened to Dame Shirley Porter?

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 01:04 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

What happened to Dame Shirley Porter?


Quote:
Quote:

I'm willing to bet you never kissed your workmates, Spendy.


You would lose. I fucked a few of them so I presume I kissed them in the preamble.


Does that answer your question?
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 01:08 pm
@izzythepush,
Go on izzy--I'll buy it. Connect me up. I'm a bit simple.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 02:28 pm
@spendius,
I think there's been a bit too much connecting up, thank you very much.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 03:21 pm
@contrex,
You've just provided us with a perfect description of yourself contrex.

izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 03:39 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Try to say something original. A five year old could do better.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2011 03:42 pm
@msolga,
Yes indeed you are consistent.

Let me try to explain what I wrote since it has so confused you.

As I've explained to izzy2 by Liberal, I don't mean the UK's Liberal Party.

These rioting youths are the product of a Progressive, Liberal, or Softheaded (take your pick) society that has been rolling along in Europe and the UK for decades.

I capitalize Liberal and Progressive to distinguish them from people who may actually be liberal or progressive in nature.

So yes, I did mean decades of "Liberal" policies, but in a broader sense than the context of UK political parties.

Are you actually a teacher?
 

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