failures art
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 07:21 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
There are a number of reasons for GOP wins in 2010. To the Dems discredit, they waffled about and took too long on HCR and let it turn into a national circus while letting Tea Party astroturf organizations control the political narrative.

The GOP also did well to organize and campaign. They ran on a predictable platform of job creation and hands off small government. Both very popular banners to carry. Since taking the house, they've been more interested in attacking medicare and planned parenthood while trying to get tax cuts for their corporate benefactors. I think the voters in 2012 will be reminded of what the GOP did not do when they came in.

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cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2011 07:27 pm
@failures art,
They've dropped the "job creation" rhetoric, and sort of replaced it with "tax cuts will create jobs."

Americans are pretty stupid; they can't see that GW Bush's tax cuts in 2002 and 2003 hasn't created jobs, but Obama went along with extending Bush's tax cuts to deal with the GOP. Foolish. Who is Obama?
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 05:39 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I'm not here to talk about others or myself. That's what stupid people do. Intelligent people exchange ideas.
Perhaps in an ideal world what you say may be true; but people are judged by the ideas they hold, or, to be correct, by the conceptual manifolds they hold as true, or right...

I find it curious that in my dealings with people I find very few that I dislike, and I know some of them hold political views I may disagree with; but it is hard to be social without being sociable, and it is easy enough if one tries to see through the political front to the back of perceived self interest... Like one man said: If they say it is not the money, but the principal of the thing; It's the money!!!

When I look at this country, I see a place where no one, not even the natives hold a clear title... Watching a tv show on America before Columbus, I noticed one Spaniard rejoicing that so many had died from disease, and so had cleared their title to the land...What we most take for granted, that property rights, like other rights, are inalienable is not at all certain... Most of the laws we have in regard to property did not grow out of a fear of commoners who had their own claim to the land, what the Chinese would call Bottom Rights... The laws we have were to give the lords protection from the avarice of kings, and whether people know it or not, they often make reference to such laws... Still, no lord would disagree with the king's power or right to tax... And one fallacy continually presents itself, and that is that the rights of property are some how immutable, and in this, people could not be further from the truth... It is the rich themselves who have most often attacked and amended property rights... Age old Feudalism was changed throughout... The peasants were loaded up with dues, and the kings were often de-fied... The inalienable property of the church was almost everwhere siezed, and the hereditary rights of the commoner to the commons was taken... By what right does anyone any where defend their property to the death, or deny the power of government which stands behind all titles???

Those who would deny government the power to tax destroy the ability of government to protect their property... If it were the property owners who had to raise their own army of esquires as in days of old to protect their lands and chattels, they would find themselves taxed to death... What the government does with its social programs attempts to keep social peace, and to provide for a happy population that does not look with too great an envy at the rich... We may talk all we want about ideas in a proper and civilized manor, and I am all for it... We should also try to realize that at the end of our ideas may hang tyranny or slavery, that the rich having ownership of the whole country may dispose of the constitution as a practical rather than a hypothetical matter, because it offers an impediment to the ownership of humanity in an increasingly dark age...

There is always some reality in every idea, though Ideas are but analogies of reality, and hardly exact... With the ideas people hold dear they paint a characature of themselves, and others -they paint with the same brush... I don't want to do that... I want to see the good in people, and recognize the really minor points that divide citizen from citizen, and human from humanity...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 05:51 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

They've dropped the "job creation" rhetoric, and sort of replaced it with "tax cuts will create jobs."

Americans are pretty stupid; they can't see that GW Bush's tax cuts in 2002 and 2003 hasn't created jobs, but Obama went along with extending Bush's tax cuts to deal with the GOP. Foolish. Who is Obama?
We are not stupid... Much information is denied to us... What people can find by research is buried in conjecture... We are like the blind men and the elephant, all having a piece of information and all blind to the whole... There is no point in fighting over what time will on its own prove right or wrong... We should compare information rather than conclusions...

I am good at reading books, and I have read books on many subjects, but I am lousy at research, going after a particular point.. I have a broad view, and I can see the similarities of our society and others in decline or agony... I understand the anger, though I seldom feel it... The solution I offer does not require violence or pain... I mean: The rich cannot be presumed to be less in pain even if they are responsible for the pain the whole society endures... And change that results in the present being recreated 10, 20, or a hundred years down the line is pointless... Revolution is called for, but revolution done right calls for understanding of forms... Clearly, judging by Jefferson in the Declaration; his generation understood forms... We must understand them as well to not be jduging blindly, nor acting in blindness...
0 Replies
 
Renaldo Dubois
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 07:25 am
@failures art,
Now watch how I reply to your post. You're gonna learn something.

I don't agree with any of your post. It sounds like it was taken word for word from some left wing propaganda site such as MSNBC or MediaMatters.

The reason the Dems lost in 2010 is because the American people saw the true face of liberalism. We all witnessed the sleazy dealings behind closed doors and the bribes to get the HCB passed. They didn't have the votes from conservative Democrats and they had to have bribes and special favors to buy their votes.

Finally, we all now know that Obungo is a fake. We all now know where he is taking this country and it's not the way of prosperity and strength. He can't even take out a third world dictator after declaring he must go. That is weakness no matter how you spin it.

failures art
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 09:15 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Now watch how I reply to your post. You're gonna learn something.

Self assertion of authority.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I don't agree with any of your post. It sounds like it was taken word for word from some left wing propaganda site such as MSNBC or MediaMatters.

Poisoning the well.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

The reason the Dems lost in 2010 is because the American people saw the true face of liberalism. We all witnessed the sleazy dealings behind closed doors and the bribes to get the HCB passed. They didn't have the votes from conservative Democrats and they had to have bribes and special favors to buy their votes.

Is this an invitation to apply your standard of "sleazy dealings" and "buying votes" to conservative politicians to see the "true face" of reactionaries?

If so, here is an appetizer form the so called party of "small government:"

Michigan

This has already been implemented on one town and it's pubic works are being sold as well as their elected officials are powerless to an appointed "financial manager." So what say you to companies being able to overpower citizens by trumping their legally elected officials?

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Finally, we all now know that Obungo is a fake.

A fake what?

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

We all now know where he is taking this country and it's not the way of prosperity and strength.

All this "we all know" is more rhetoric fallacy.

Prosperity and Strength? We are the richest and most powerful country in the world. How much more prosperity and strength do you think we need? That said, you don't even support such a claim.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

He can't even take out a third world dictator after declaring he must go.

The US created a no fly zone, they did not personally call for a strike on Qaddafi. Declaring someone must go, does not mean assassination.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

That is weakness no matter how you spin it.

Interesting (perhaps ironic) choice of wording. The idea that it comes out as weakness no matter what is more evidence that you spin everything.

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spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 09:22 am
@failures art,
Quote:
We are the richest and most powerful country in the world.


That depends upon how "richest" is conceived and your powers have never been tested in your own weight division.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 09:34 am
@spendius,
Have you ever thought fa how reassuring medical services, free and on demand by all, actually are? The US seems unable to afford such an obvious manifestation of riches.

To be constantly at risk of earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, ice storms, heat waves and such like must be quite trying I should think.

And having a guilt complex about prospering on the use of an untapped and ethnically cleansed land is not very satisfactory. The use having been facilitated by European technology.
0 Replies
 
Renaldo Dubois
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 09:53 am
@failures art,
What a pathetic post. Nothing of substance or logic. Propaganda, all is phoney. You really need to take a night class on "critical thinking". Looks to all of us that you were either sick a lot during your school years or you have a learning disability. I'm really concerned about you. Are your parents at home? Do you need help?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 10:19 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Nothing but ad hominem. Didn't even address the topic.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 10:23 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

What a pathetic post.

I did not intend to illicit pathos.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Nothing of substance or logic.

Substance such as pointing out what is happening in Michigan right now?

Logic such as pointing out your logical fallacies by name(red herring, poisoning the well, etc)?

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Propaganda, all is phoney.

You are welcome to support this sentence fragment if you wish.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

You really need to take a night class on "critical thinking".

What is "critical thinking" in quotes?

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Looks to all of us that you were either sick a lot during your school years or you have a learning disability.

"Us?" How many people are sitting in your computer chair with you? I guess if you are more than one poster, that would explain when you contradict yourself.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I'm really concerned about you.

That's awfully kind of you.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Are your parents at home?

At their home? I have no idea.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Do you need help?

Well, not that you mention it, I was going to work on my motorcycle today, but it's rainy here. Maybe you could hold the umbrella for me while I clean the chain.

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0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 10:25 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

That depends upon how "richest" is conceived...

GDP is a pretty good measure.

spendius wrote:

...and your powers have never been tested in your own weight division.

The fact that we are in our own weight division is support enough to my point.

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Renaldo Dubois
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 12:22 pm
@failures art,
What he meant was you're a lightweight and you should stick to debating those in your own level. You're very weak.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 12:34 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
More ad hominems. RD doesn't understand the first thing about debate.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 12:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Wow, what a deep thought. I'm impressed.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 01:13 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
GDP is a pretty good measure.


For a materialist on the winning side in the class war at this particular time--maybe.

Quote:
The fact that we are in our own weight division is support enough to my point.


No it isn't.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 03:30 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
GDP is a pretty good measure.


For a materialist on the winning side in the class war at this particular time--maybe.

I don't complain about my wealth nor my circumstances. I have enough perspective to realize how fortunate I am. Class war is the GOP's game to summon pity for the grossly rich and subsidized. Boring.

You're free to propose an alternative measure since you don't like GDP as a measure of prosperity for the US.

spendius wrote:

Quote:
The fact that we are in our own weight division is support enough to my point.


No it isn't.

Sure it is. We have as many aircraft carriers as the rest of the world combined. The amount of military power and presence we have in the world is unmatched. Not even close. We could give up half of it and still be in our own weight class.

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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 03:46 pm
@failures art,
I believe spendi is suffering from deflated ego; the UK used to be the powerhouse once, but that was a long time ago. US vs UK; no contest.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2011 02:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,

The English have submerged their dignity under socialism & gun control.

Its sad.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2011 04:18 pm
@failures art,
Here in the states, class warfare is a liberal thing.
 

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