The 2012 Presidential Election Discussion Thread

@cicerone imposter,

NYT article: GOP rivals trying to prove their "conservatism." It's worth a good laugh.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/us/politics/gop-hopefuls-pressed-to-prove-their-conservatism.html

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Well stated; the conservatives who demand less government intrusion into private lives are promoting discrimination against gays and lesbians, and pregnant women by claiming "right to life." They don't give a **** about "right to life." If they did, they would do more about the children living in poverty and starving.

As I believe God said of Job to the demon: Only don't kill him... Take all the stuff that makes life seem meaningful, take all that makes life livable, but don't kill them... What a crock... The biggest trickle down scheem in this world was were property rights were supposed to help and support all rights...

Property rights are not rights at all, but privilages, and they are in conflict with human rights and fundamentally different because if they were the same they would be called the same, and they are not... Property rights are secured at the cost of human rights and people without rights have nothing to live for, nothing to live with, and no hope to share with their unborn children but their misery and frustration... If all the property in this land were suddenly to revert to the state those with property would live as well as anyone else by virtue of human rights... The reason people will not let go of their property and would commit almost and crime of sin to own property is that it gives them power and prestige they would not otherwise possess, and political power far beyond the just reward of virtue, which they take out of the political power of the property-less which is the means by which the poor secure their rights and livelyhoods... It is not the shackles and harnass that makes slaves, but the want of rights, and having no rights, wealth and justice are also denied..

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@hnicoleanderson,

hnicoleanderson wrote:

Cain is suspending his campaign and launching another website. This clown needs professional help.

According to TCM.com, Cain can continue to raise funds.

Look for another uptick in Newt's numbers.

Cain closes with his Pokemon quote. Wow!

You have to be stupid to capture the imagination of the republicans, but especially ignorant to even try... The one common denominator between republicans and dems, all politicians, really, is the belief that they can lie themselves out of every situation they lie themselves into, and a total contempt for the intelligence of the electorate... hitler little bettered them when he compared the electorate to a whore... They all think the population is as stupid as their mothers or the women they screw..

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

That only speaks to the sad state of American politics and Americans; not much smarts in politicians or the voters.

The only mistake the people are making is trying to live by the rules they were born with which clearly are not working for them... They do not have the collective ability to think outside the box, or form, as the case is...

1 Reply

@Fido,

They keep advocating for more tax cuts for the rich even as the evidence of the Bush tax cuts in 2002-2003 has not worked. More of same voters are losing their jobs and homes, less are able to send their children to college, and they want more of the same.

That's wacko in anyone's language.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

They keep advocating for more tax cuts for the rich even as the evidence of the Bush tax cuts in 2002-2003 has not worked. More of same voters are losing their jobs and homes, less are able to send their children to college, and they want more of the same.

That's wacko in anyone's language.

For people to act against their best interest because the people they most respect tell them to do so is as old as human kind, and is perfectly formal and polite behavior... To look at the form of our social relationship, our society, or form of government, and our form of economy, and our form of religion from the outside, and to see it for what it is, and to what extent it dominates every life, and stiffles all imagination is strange, weird, and even madness...

I would look at a school of fish trapped in a gill net with as little admiration or sympathy, but understand it is all so normal as to be beyond judgment... Forms help us to survive, but they also in the end doom whole societies to death, destruction, and slavery... Most of us are already slaves since we cannot free our minds... We would rather be polite that kill the people who are killing us, and worse, sucking the meaning out of all society, forcing us as the price of having our lives to live as so many animals, fearful and trembling at the approach of any stranger, growling and barking against friend and foe alike... They are natural even if doomed and dooming us all...

You and I are the strange and unusual... Until people understand how they are trapped, they will never be free... The morality which makes all social living possible is used to hold people powerless even while they suffer injustice and witness injustice, and the worst of us actually celebrate our abuse, and sabotage every hope for change... I hate to agree with Nietzche on any score, but in this land where all enterprise is criminal and morality is used to keep people helpless and meek, the people must reject the morality which binds them, and be more criminal than the criminals that oppress them, and be daring and outrageous in the commision of their crimes... I would do so myself if I thought I could injure the oligarchs and plutocrats without hurting the slaves so faithful to them...

Some day I may not care who gets hurt, and then freedom will be at hand..To have freedom we must have power, and the power one has over another is never willingly surrendered... It must be ripped from the dying hands of tyrants and oppressors...How does one go about teaching that power over others is immoral, even obscene, that the authority one gives to government is distinct from the power on delegates to government to act in their names.... We all need to be aware of our own power, both to do good, and to refrain from doing injury...

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@cicerone imposter,

All you need to do is listen to the news (NOT FOX) & watch the debates to figure this one out. What a freak show these republicans are!

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Tax cuts are a great idea, and is one we should all embrace... The constitution was created by the propertied class to defend their property rights, and the bill of rights was clearly an after thought, and the whole of it was passed by states without universal suffrage, where even voting had property qualifications... The constitution was an antidemocratic instrament with only the house given to the people as a sop for which the Senate and Supreme Court was created to frustrate, and even the house has been changed to make it less responsive to democracy... If the rich want to let their cop and soldier die for want of nourishments, thinking to kill only the many millions of poor they have created at the same time; then I dare them... The government may try to live for a time by starving the poor, but they will sooner educate them that they can live better without the rich or the government... It is the government that must teach the population that they are the right and the power of government, and without them the government is illegal...

1 Reply

@Fido,

Tax cuts are a great idea - when the middle class are earning respectable incomes and benefits. Not when the upper one percent gains 300% of the companies profits while the middle class doesn't keep up with inflation - for the past three decades.

If you believe in the Bush tax cuts, you're as confused as the conservatives who continue to advocate for more tax cuts for the rich. When do you think they should help pay down our growing national debt, keep up our infrastructure, and fund our schools, police, and firemen/women? How about defense and homeland security?

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LOL and the Jerry Springer mud slinging republican nomination antics continue, Herman who?

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@jcboy,

jcboy wrote:

All you need to do is listen to the news (NOT FOX) & watch the debates to figure this one out. What a freak show these republicans are!

The strength of the republican party are people of faith and not of reason... Their thinking is only to put a candidate before their voters who is not Mr. Obama, and not a democrat... What need have those manipulators behind the candidates for a strong leader who can actually figure things out for himself... If a republican could figure things out for himself, he would not be a republican... They are a bunch of freaks to the rational...Some times the blind lead the blind and the maimed lead the maimed... What would be the point of giving them a whole person to lead them when where you want them to actually go no normal person would go??? It reminds me of a story out of history about a army from the Balkans attacking Constatinople, only to lose, and surrender... Out of every hundred men, the army of the city blinded 99, and left one man with one eye to lead the rest home...That one eyed sort of man is what the republican string pullers want of a candidate... No vision... No imagination, and no reason..

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Tax cuts are a great idea - when the middle class are earning respectable incomes and benefits. Not when the upper one percent gains 300% of the companies profits while the middle class doesn't keep up with inflation - for the past three decades.

That looks like a wild and obviously false allegation. Please provide some backup for your strange assertion that "the upper one percent gains 300% of the companies (sic) profits". What the hell do you mean here?

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Tax cuts are a great idea - when the middle class are earning respectable incomes and benefits. Not when the upper one percent gains 300% of the companies profits while the middle class doesn't keep up with inflation - for the past three decades.

If you believe in the Bush tax cuts, you're as confused as the conservatives who continue to advocate for more tax cuts for the rich. When do you think they should help pay down our growing national debt, keep up our infrastructure, and fund our schools, police, and firemen/women? How about defense and homeland security?

The monster that is government eats a lot, makes enemies for us around the world for the benefit of the rich, and helps the people a little while always denying their right to justice and more than what they get... The monster is too big and well protected to kill... The only way it can be killed is to starve it out... It will not starve without trying to starve the people first, as it is already doing; but if the rich think they will survive while their government fails they are stupid or insane...

They are working at counter revolution before the revolution has ever taken root... They are trying to destroy all that this country revolted from England to have; in a word: Liberty... Starving people are never free, but slaves first to their stomachs and then to their masters... Let us starve if it means we become educated, because clearly we are not needed even as slaves... They will not feed those they do not need... Our only hope rests on the chance that people will fight for their lives and for their rights rather than hanging on to a false morality until it kills them...

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Tax cuts are a great idea - when the middle class are earning respectable incomes and benefits. Not when the upper one percent gains 300% of the companies profits while the middle class doesn't keep up with inflation - for the past three decades.

That looks like a wild and obviously false allegation. Please provide some backup for your strange assertion that "the upper one percent gains 300% of the companies (sic) profits". What the hell do you mean here?

You deny the obvious... Why should anyone provide proof of the obvious for you to deny as well???

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@georgeob1,

What I mean is that many of those CEO's are raking in 300% more than the average worker of companies. The average worker is not gaining in his salary and benefits from the company profits, and are falling behind the inflation rate.

From CNNMoney:

Quote:

CEOs earn 343 times more than typical workers

By Jennifer Liberto, senior writerApril 20, 2011: 7:46 AM ET

WASHINGTON (CNNMoney) -- In 2010, chief executives at some of the nation's largest companies earned an average of $11.4 million in total pay -- 343 times more than a typical American worker, according to the AFL-CIO.

"Despite the collapse of the financial market at the hands of executives less than 3 years ago, the disparity between CEO and workers' pay has continued to grow to levels that are simply stunning," said Richard Trumka, AFL-CIO president.

In an effort to shine a light on CEO pay, the AFL-CIO examined chief executive salaries at 299 firms traded on the S&P 500. Their compensation was up 23% in 2010, compared to 2009. AFL-CIO used Bureau of Labor Statistics wage data to define typical worker pay, which was $33,190 for all occupations in 2009, the most recent year for which data is available.

That and more data is posted on the website paywatch.org, which is run by the union group. The site will eventually post CEO pay for all 500 companies, as that data is released in proxies submitted to the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC).

You'll have to challenge CNNMoney if you disagree.

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@cicerone imposter,

A report by Robert Reich on CEO salary:

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/robert-reich-ceo-pay-now-300-times-pay-ave

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@cicerone imposter,

Well that is a very different thing from what you assserted earlier.

Based on your data from the utterly unbiased AFL-CIO, the "typical American worker" this makes, $11.1 million/343 = $33,236/year or $16/hr. That's about what the checkout clerk in a supermarket makes. Furthermore the reference was to compensation for CEOs of "some of the nations largest companies" - at best a very vague reference to an unknown number of CEOs. The implication here is that is typical for most American businesses - which it certainly is not. Further the CEO compensation is not clearly described. Is it salary, stock options and/or benefits in kind. Very likely it includes all, making the comparison itself suspect if the worker's benefits are not also included (payroll taxes, health care, etc).

Perhaps you should also look into the salaries and compensation plans for the top executives for the AFL-CIO. Unfortunately, unlike corporations, Labor Unions are not required to publish the salaries and compensation of their leaders. It's a great reacket - most of them make quite a lot.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

You can do that on your own - if you're interested. I'm not.

It's too bad you missed this gem:

Quote:

In an effort to shine a light on CEO pay, the AFL-CIO examined chief executive salaries at 299 firms traded on the S&P 500. Their compensation was up 23% in 2010, compared to 2009. AFL-CIO used Bureau of Labor Statistics wage data to define typical worker pay, which was $33,190 for all occupations in 2009, the most recent year for which data is available.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Publicly traded firms are required by law to publish every detail of executive compensation (and that of their directors. Labor unions enjoy government sanctioned monopolies on labor for companies they have organized (except in the 23 states with right to work laws), but they have no corresponding obligation to publish an accounting of the dues they collect or salaries and sweetheart deal they cut with their chief officers. Labor Unions function very much like mafia protection rackets.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

We were talking about CEO's of companies earning 300 times the average wages, and you want to talk about unions. Go ahead, but that's not the area of discussion I'm interested in. Mafia? LOL All those government jobs under unions are controlled by the Mafia? News to me!

1 Reply

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