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Where was God during the holocaust?

 
 
sgregorythegreat
 
  0  
Sun 1 Jan, 2012 07:53 pm
@thack45,
I agree that God can do whatever He wants, else He is not God. But God could never want to contradict himself.

The point I'm making is that he deemed it good to give us free-will, to violate that would be to contradict his own action, which a perfect being cannot do. I'm sure we can agree that it is impossible for a purely perfect being, if one exists, to contradict himself beceause it implies a lack of perfection in itself.

Why does this question not presuppose that God did not prevent a worse evil from happening in WW2?

I don't know if I'd say those athiests are unintelligent, but the point certainly is based in emotion rather than the intellect
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 1 Jan, 2012 09:24 pm
@sgregorythegreat,
Your understanding of free will is lost in logic. If people who go to heaven has free will, will they ever sin again? I thought it was life eternal in heaven.
sgregorythegreat
 
  1  
Mon 2 Jan, 2012 10:49 am
@cicerone imposter,
I'm not sure I got your point, could you re-phrase that?
djjd62
 
  1  
Mon 2 Jan, 2012 10:57 am
Where was God during the holocaust?

one could just as easily ask where were the jews during the crucifixion Wink
0 Replies
 
JoeBruno
 
  -1  
Wed 22 Feb, 2012 07:54 am
@Alan McDougall,
There is no promise by God in the Old Testament that He will protect the Jews
from all harm.He promised only that he would give them the land of Israel.

Many Jews are ignorant and foolish because they reject God with the Holocaust as their excuse.How come these yoyos did not reject God after all the pogroms
against Jews in Europe prior to the Holocaust?800 Jews were murdered in Worms, Germany during the Crusades because they would not convert to Christianity.That was not enough for them?
Sturgis
 
  2  
Wed 22 Feb, 2012 08:28 am
@JoeBruno,
Quote:
Many Jews are ignorant and foolish because they reject God with the Holocaust as their excuse.How come these yoyos did not reject God after all the pogroms
against Jews in Europe prior to the Holocaust?
Don't be silly.
Many of the Jews did turn away from God during and after the various pogroms. Some completely turned towards atheism, others took the agnostic road. Between pogroms and the holocaust combined as well as untimely deaths, it is rumored that my grandfather turned agnostic.

Certainly there are those, and always will be that stay true to their faith, believing there is a reason for the events which are happening and the sorrow which they bring. Even the holocaust did not entirely remove all Jews from practicing their faith and holding strong and true to what they believe.

People reject or turn from God for many reasons. It can be the death of one held dear or deadly plagues, or gained disillusionment over a period of time from several lesser events. Faith either holds or is weakened and ceases to hold, sometimes temporarily, at other times permanently, it is different for each of us.

Why some did not reject after a pogrom destroyed their village and others did is a matter of the level of faith from one individual to the next. Faith, even when lost, can often be restored. There are those that might then say that then the faith never was truly lost. Perhaps this is true, we as mortals, do not know.

For you to say people are ignorant or foolish for rejecting God due to the holocaust; and not from the pogroms indicated a limited level of knowing the concept of faith.

Through the centuries, the Jews have been attacked, faced expulsion from different countries, had their communities leveled, been forced to endure humiliation and tortures of different sorts, yet many have stayed true to their faith. At different times, Jews have been forced to convert and on the surface many did, many later returning to their one true belief.

If you wish to know why a person turns from God, then you need to ask that person.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 22 Feb, 2012 11:32 am
@sgregorythegreat,
It's a simple concept that is straight forward and easy to understand. I'm not sure what is confusing to you.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Wed 22 Feb, 2012 12:27 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

We might not have the conscious free will we think we have. Our unconscious might be making decisions for us, and our conscious thoughts only have a veto power. A veto power is just an "executive power," but not free will, as I understand it.
JoeBruno
 
  1  
Wed 22 Feb, 2012 08:35 pm
@Sturgis,
I am Jewish myself, so many of your comments are simply not appropriate.
The point I made is that nowhere in the Old Testament does God promise to keep the Jews safe from all harm.If some Jews reject Him because He did not always protect them, it is only because of a personal notion of their own that He owes them complete safety.Such a concept is not part of Jewish scripture.

His function according to Judaism is is to make the laws by which Jews live
and judge Jews by their level of compliance with His law.He is our Lord and Master, not our friend.That friendship idea for God is a Christian notion and not part of Judaism.

It appears your knowledge of Judaism is extremely limited.
You have attempted to impart your own personal notions to a religion that existed for 3,000 years before you were born.
This particular Jew categorically rejects your submissions.Even ordinary Jews have no power or authority to change Jewish law or the concepts of Judaism itself.That authority rests with God, whose word is conveyed to us through his
Tanakh and His prophets.

gungasnake
 
  1  
Wed 22 Feb, 2012 08:59 pm
@Alan McDougall,
God and the spirit world clearly have no power to act in this physical realm which we (temporarily) live in.
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  1  
Thu 23 Feb, 2012 08:59 am
@JoeBruno,
Quote:
I am Jewish myself, so many of your comments are simply not appropriate.
Having a Jewish heritage myself (although raised non Jew), in and of itself qualifies me as a direct connection to this topic. Having read a number of books on Judaism, adds to my qualifications. Addtionally, I have gone through countless records searching for some trace of the family which was destroyed in Lwów (known as Lemberg when my grandfather was born there), as well as researching and reading about others who were obliterated during the holocaust of the early 20th century.

If that were not enough to place me as one who can speak and write on this subject, I've additionally read about the history of the Jews (as opposed to Judaism in and of itself which is the religious aspect, rather than historical).


Further, the mere fact that you happen to be Jewish, whether by birth or conversion, does not give you sole right to dictate which direction a discussion must go or which comments are appropriate or not.


I am more than above the ready line to discuss this topic. With you however there is little sense to doing so as you have already formed your own ideas of what is, what isn't and the why for each and the how for each. Discussion with you cannot be done unless you are willing to hear other takes on these matters.

Quote:
The point I made is that nowhere in the Old Testament does God promise to keep the Jews safe from all harm.If some Jews reject Him because He did not always protect them, it is only because of a personal notion of their own that He owes them complete safety.Such a concept is not part of Jewish scripture.

His function according to Judaism is is to make the laws by which Jews live
and judge Jews by their level of compliance with His law.He is our Lord and Master, not our friend.That friendship idea for God is a Christian notion and not part of Judaism.


Quote:
It appears your knowledge of Judaism is extremely limited.

Yours isn't any better, although you pretend it is.
Quote:
You have attempted to impart your own personal notions to a religion that existed for 3,000 years before you were born.

Which is exactly what you have done. You push your personal ideas regarding a religion which began centuries before your birth.


Quote:
This particular Jew categorically rejects your submissions.Even ordinary Jews have no power or authority to change Jewish law or the concepts of Judaism itself.That authority rests with God, whose word is conveyed to us through his
Tanakh and His prophets.
You can reject whatever you wish, I can choose to do the same towards your submits.

Not sure what you are attempting to say with "ordinary Jews..." Are you proclaiming yourself to be above other Jews? Must be mighty lonely in your temple. Anyway, I never said I was attempting to change Jewish law or concepts. What I offered was my thoughts upon the matter. You inquired as to why people turned from God at the time of the holocaust but not before. My response was detailed, including statements to the effect that many had turned from God at earlier times, just as some did not turn from God even with the holocaust.
My last sentence before, was "If you wish to know why a person turns from God, then you need to ask that person."

One last thing, to quote you (since you wrote it up) "This is an open discussion forum without a moderator.I can post anything I damn well please without being solicited or asked for it.
The rules for this forum specify no context requirement at all.

I do not need your approval of my material before or after I post it[
/i]."

Lastly, and here I am taking your quote and aiming it back towards you,
"Why don't you take your opinions and stick them where the sun don't shine?"

JoeBruno
 
  1  
Thu 23 Feb, 2012 09:22 pm
@Sturgis,
"Having a Jewish heritage myself (although raised non Jew), in and of itself qualifies me as a direct connection to this topic."

Reading books on Judaism without practicing it does not make you qualified, since many Jewish traditions and rituals are not written anywhere, but are passed down by word of mouth from parents to children..Most of what the Orthodox do comes from the Talmud, but Conservative and Reform traditions
are very often verbal.

You can insist till Doomsday that you know Judaism, but your comments on the subject prove that you do not.

I'm not "dictating" anything. I am describing Judaism as I have known it for more than 60 years mostly from the Conservative viewpoint, but I also grew up with some of the Orthodox and visited them in their homes where I observed them at prayer and at meals.

The anti-Semites insist they know all about Judaism, too. Then they turn around and tell lies about it.

I am never impressed or convinced by a recitation of credentials.The display of genuine true knowledge is what matters.

Why don't you devise your own editorial comments instead of plagiarizing mine?A parrot can do that.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 23 Feb, 2012 10:28 pm
@JoeBruno,

A parrot? WOW!
0 Replies
 
1Prince
 
  1  
Sun 26 Feb, 2012 01:16 pm
@JoeBruno,
Maybe you should read the OT again.

Exodus;
I am going to send an angel in front of you, to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Be attentive to him and listen to his voice; do not rebel against him, 0r he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him. But if you listen attentively to his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes. When my angel goes in front of you, and brings you to the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, and I blot them out, you shall not bow down to their gods, or worship them, or follow their practices, but you shall utterly demolish them and break their pillars in pieces. You shall worship the Lord your God, and I will bless your bread and your water; and I will take sickness away from among you. No one shall miscarry or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days. I will send my terror in front of you, and will throw into confusion all the people against whom you shall come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you.

You must remain completely loyal to the Lord your God. Although these nations that you are about to dispossess do give heed to soothsayers and diviners, as for you, the Lord your God does not permit you to do so. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you shall heed such a prophet. This is what you requested of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said: "If I hear the voice of the Lord my God any more, or ever again see this great fire, I will die." Then the Lord replied to me: "They are right in what they have said. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put my words in the mouth of the prophet, who shall speak to them everything that I command. Anyone who does not heed the words that the prophet shall speak in my name, I myself will hold accountable.
Iamlife
 
  0  
Sun 14 Apr, 2013 09:29 pm
@Alan McDougall,
God was right there seeing it all happen during the time of the holocaust. Where was the parent of the child who had to allow a doctor to operate in order to save the child's life? The parent was right there realizing that when the operation was over the child would be able to live free from the disease that was killing him. Life is hard, and to have it sometime requires some hard choices to be made. God was there seeing it all. To believe in God requires that a person should answer such questions for himself/herself in order to have peach with what you believe. Believing that God could allow such a thing doesn't hinder my faith at all. Looking for a time when such things never happens anymore gives me great hope.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Sun 14 Apr, 2013 09:45 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

We might not have the conscious free will we think we have. Our unconscious might be making decisions for us, and our conscious thoughts only have a veto power. A veto power is just an "executive power," but not free will, as I understand it.


Free will seems less and less likely as more research comes in. You may like this: http://videolectures.net/eccs08_haynes_udofdithb/
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Tue 23 Apr, 2013 06:28 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
Where was God during the holocaust, because of this many say there simply is no God watching over us.?

What do you of the forum think?
For what its worth, the Bible gives an answer to this question: an answer, BTW, that most preachers will decline to advance.

The god of this world, our present system of things, is not the creator. In fact, Jesus at John 14:30 said ". . . I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,"

The ruler he referred to is no other than the one Mentioned in this account at Matthew 4:8-10 ". . . Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”" Satan could not offer what was not his.

Judge for yourselves why the clergy ignore this fact - why they so eagerly bless the cannons of warfare - why they are unable to give satisfying answers to parents whose child has died.

God has promised to act in our behalf and release us from this state of affairs. I believe the time is short. But that's just me, of course.
FBM
 
  1  
Wed 24 Apr, 2013 08:36 am
@neologist,
Are you serious, or taking the piss?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 24 Apr, 2013 09:23 am
@1Prince,
More psycho babble. Contradictions are not messages from any sane person.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Wed 24 Apr, 2013 09:43 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
Are you serious, or taking the piss?
Eloquently and convincingly stated. Drunk
 

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