Bible Party of the USA

@Volunteer,

You create enemies in a world where there is no shortage of suffering and hatred, how does this help? If you believe in the power of tranformation of your own religion, then wait, debate, difuse, not through the sword, justice is something only God can exact, because only he knows what is in everyone's heart, only he can and will decide who was righteous and good, but a word of advice only in a peacefull state can we humans progress spiritually.

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@markx15,

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@markx15,

markx15;12522 wrote:

You create enemies in a world where there is no shortage of suffering and hatred, how does this help? If you believe in the power of tranformation of your own religion, then wait, debate, difuse, not through the sword, justice is something only God can exact, because only he knows what is in everyone's heart, only he can and will decide who was righteous and good, but a word of advice only in a peacefull state can we humans progress spiritually.

Telling someone they are lost and need to repent should not make them an enemy. If it does, then they prove they are lost, blind, and due to their hardened hearts have no intention of finding a way back. When someone is lost and refuses to acknowledge that and repent of their sins, the only thing a Christian can do is continue to speak the Truth and maintain hope with faith and prayer that Christ Jesus will soften their hearts. If, through free will, those people who are lost continue to harden their hearts, then all we, as Christians can do, is continue to speak the Truth, pray for their salvation, and if they refuse to listen, watch them die spiritually. In many cases this spiritual death leads to a gradual physical death as their sins catch up to them. Their death, spiritually and physically cannot reduce our joy at personal salvation through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. It cannot prevent us from continuing to speak the Truth. The Truth is the sword.

Ephesians 6:10-13, "Finally, be strengthened by the Lord and by His vast strength. Put on the full armor of God so that you can stand against the tactics of the Devil. For our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world powers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens. This is why you must take up the full armor of God, so that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having prepared everything, to take your stand."

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@Pinochet73,

Pinochet73;12431 wrote:

You can't logically use a source to validate itself as a source.

This has been bothering me because it is not true in this case. God does validate himself. God validates His Word. If God is God, don't you think he can ensure His Word remains incorrptible and if man attemps to corrupt It, then God can make correction for that attempt? Couldn't this be why discoveries are now being frequently made that validate significant portions of the Bible?

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@Pinochet73,

Pinochet73;12313 wrote:

Volunteer,

That was written by Paul. Paul didn't know Jesus. He converted after Jesus died. Yes, he was an important Christian, but he wasn't Jesus, nor even one of the original apostles. I don't view his theological work as the foundation of Christianity. It's part of that foundation, but only a part. Luther went way too far in developing a new, Bible-based theology, stemming from his inappropriate isolation of a narrow slice of Pauline theology. Luther insisted the Bible was the only source of religious authority, yet he ignored those parts of the New Testament that offset Paul, such as The Book of James. Luther, the father of Bible Christianity, felt no obligation to be rational or honest in his scholarship. He based everything on the Bible, yet hated and ignored much of it. He was illogical, and driven by personal demons.

God uses flawed people because all human beings except one are flawed. That can't negate His purpose or inhibit the effect He intends.

Saul did not, but Paul did know Jesus in as concrete a way as the Apostles. The Apostles accepted Paul and worked with him after he saw the Light.

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@Volunteer,

Pinochet it is necessary to defend yourself and those around you from common enemies, but to declare war because of their ideology is not righteous, so what if they do it show yourself to be the bigger man. They use terrorism because it works in the sense that now the whole world is attuned to the social problems in the middle east, can I ask you how long have you been fighting this "holy war"? Not every muslim reflects the actions and beliefs of Al-Qaeda, not even close, the are many who hate them as much as yourself. I personally know muslim men and women who follow the q'uran perfectlly and do not arive to the conclusion that to kill a non-muslim is forgivable, quite to the contrary they detest these men who difame their religion, their brothers and their way of life. Try to understand them, so that when the time comes to fight with fire with fire you will know why you are fireing, not because they are Islamic, but because they are barbaric.

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@Volunteer,

Quote:

History and world affairs strongly suggest otherwise. I don’t see peaceful advice having much of an effect on Al Qaeda

Noone is trying to resolve this peacefully, and in this case I doubt they could. Against the beliefs and actions of these particular men I commend your position. There is need however to remember that not all muslims are like them, many wish for a peaceful co-existence, unfortunatlly scandals and violence attract a greater audience these days then peace and friendship.

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@Volunteer,

Quote:

The next time you contest a traffic ticket in court, tell that to the judge. See how he reacts.

Not that kind of justice, I mean the more along the lines of the final judgement.

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@Volunteer,

Volunteer I agree with you, words and beliefs should not make people enemies, but that happens on both sides of the fence.

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@markx15,

"This has been bothering me because it is not true in this case."

It can be both true and untrue. It's a matter of perspective and interpretation, and it's relative. As an interpretive Bible reader, I consider the Bible a reflection and by-product of Christian history. It's vitally important, but it doesn't stand alone. In other words, I see God's word alive and at work in other phenomena, such as the life and times of His special communities (ie, ancient Israel and the Christian West). I see His word in history, in contemporary developments and events, and in my own life, just as much as I do in the Bible. This is what I meant when I said that isolating the Bible from the 'whole' isn't a good idea, yet that's what Fundamentalism is all about. Fundamentalist Catholiics argue that their church is the whole, and that there's nothing outside it. I disagree with them, as well. :headbang:

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@Volunteer,

Jake, keep the general figures in mind: Islam is one billion strong. Roughly 20%hate us. That's 200 million people. Man, that's A LOT of enemies.

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@markx15,

so? geesh it is a sign of success to be hated. Lots of people still hate Jesus, and anyone who is successful in this world has a number of enemies. In fact it is a part of life. I allow my enemies to propel me to greatness. In fact one enemy was so busy being jealous and vindictive l sent him a Christmas card, and thanked him for his unrelenting attack as he made me look so amazing and himself so silly. I also passed on the insight that he was propelling me to greater success, since l was now aware of the incredible threat l was to him, and now valued myself greatly.

I think that the "holy war" concept is illogical. Both sides believe that their God is right, and therefore they must impose this on whoever doesn't agree, this in fact is opposite of what the teachings of the Bible, the Kabballah, and the Laws of the Universe. There is one God we are taught, and all is one. So regardless of the stupidity of the belief, it is infinately more stupid to fight over something that is suppose to unit and promote love.

There are two emotions that humans have- love and fear. love unites and fear rips apart. We need to look at the decisions being discussed and those being made and ask ourselves, are these being done in love or in fear.

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@Volunteer,

I agree, they contradict themselves by launching holy wars. Nice to see you again!

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@Volunteer,

“so? geesh it is a sign of success to be hated. Lots of people still hate Jesus, and anyone who is successful in this world has a number of enemies.”

Right. But I’m referring to the survival of Christian Civilization, and not individuals. Didn’t 911 teach you anything? That’s tragic.

“In fact it is a part of life. I allow my enemies to propel me to greatness.”

Man, don’t I know it. I live that way myself.

“In fact one enemy was so busy being jealous and vindictive l sent him a Christmas card, and thanked him for his unrelenting attack as he made me look so amazing and himself so silly.”

No offense, but that wasn’t very Christ-like, was it? Also, tactically speaking, you lowered yourself to his level.

“I also passed on the insight that he was propelling me to greater success, since l was now aware of the incredible threat l was to him, and now valued myself greatly.”

That’s better.

“I think that the "holy war" concept is illogical.”

How can survival be ‘illogical’? I think anyone who doesn’t want to survive is a loser, and maybe even an illogical one at that.

“Both sides believe that their God is right, and therefore they must impose this on whoever doesn't agree, this in fact is opposite of what the teachings of the Bible, the Kabballah, and the Laws of the Universe.”

Not exactly. The Old Testament is chuck full of holy war-driven genocide on the part of the Jews. Much of my inspiration is derived therein. I don’t care about the Kabballah, and the laws of the universe don’t have squat to do with tribal conflict and ascendancy.

“There is one God we are taught, and all is one. So regardless of the stupidity of the belief, it is infinately more stupid to fight over something that is suppose to unit and promote love.”

Yeah, I felt so united with and loved by Islam on 911. I also felt overwhelming fraternity with the executioners who sawed off Nick Berg’s head with a dull kitchen knife. And Iran……ah, yes…….Iran. I’m so relieved they took more hostages to terrorize and use as leverage to build nukes to blow up Israel and start a nuclear holocaust. You live in the Land of Oz, my friend. You’ll figure it out the day SHTF.

“There are two emotions that humans have- love and fear. love unites and fear rips apart. We need to look at the decisions being discussed and those being made and ask ourselves, are these being done in love or in fear.”

And don’t forget a few others – fight or flight. Presently, you live in the comfort of a powerful, materially aristocratic, secure country. You can afford to think like Woodrow Wilson or Ghandi or MLK, but your fantasies about fraternity having any impact at all on Al Qaeda and its 200 million followers are childlike and irrelevant to reality. Dream on, Grasshopper. Dream on. The day on which you can wish away the explosives strapped to suicide bombers, or the swords sawing off the heads of innocent hostages in the Middle East, you will be ready to leave the Shaolin Temple. Until then, Grasshopper, you must continue to train in the ways of life, and LEARN its most basic lessons first.

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@markx15,

Tulip;12549 wrote:

so? geesh it is a sign of success to be hated. Lots of people still hate Jesus, and anyone who is successful in this world has a number of enemies. In fact it is a part of life. I allow my enemies to propel me to greatness. In fact one enemy was so busy being jealous and vindictive l sent him a Christmas card, and thanked him for his unrelenting attack as he made me look so amazing and himself so silly. I also passed on the insight that he was propelling me to greater success, since l was now aware of the incredible threat l was to him, and now valued myself greatly.

I think that the "holy war" concept is illogical. Both sides believe that their God is right, and therefore they must impose this on whoever doesn't agree, this in fact is opposite of what the teachings of the Bible, the Kabballah, and the Laws of the Universe. There is one God we are taught, and all is one. So regardless of the stupidity of the belief, it is infinately more stupid to fight over something that is suppose to unit and promote love.

There are two emotions that humans have- love and fear. love unites and fear rips apart. We need to look at the decisions being discussed and those being made and ask ourselves, are these being done in love or in fear.

Whether it is illogical or not, people are forced to defend themselves and their loved ones from those who belive it is their right, or obligation to their god, to force you to think or live their way.

John 15:18-25, “"If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love [you as] its own. However, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of it, the world hates you. Remember the word I spoke to you: 'A slave is not greater than his master. ' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will also keep yours. But they will do all these things to you on account of My name, because they don't know the One who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin. Now they have no excuse for their sin. The one who hates Me also hates My Father. If I had not done the works among them that no one else has done, they would not have sin. Now they have seen and hated both Me and My Father. But [this happened] so that the statement written in their law might be fulfilled: They hated Me for no reason.”

Love does not unite unless both sides love. Otherwise, love can repel that side that does not love. If that side is repelled, then what can the side that loves do. If the repelled side chooses to attempt to annihilate the side that loves what should the side that loves do, allow itself to be annihilated? The only reason Jesus allowed Himself to be led to the cross was to be a sacrifice for our sins as decreed by His and our Father and eliminate the accuser’s power. Prior to that event He protected Himself and His sheep and taught them what they needed to know.

Fear is a tool used to manipulate. Someone who rolls over and accepts what evil wants them to accept has succumbed to that manipulation.

John 16:1-4, “I have told you these things to keep you from stumbling. They will ban you from the synagogues. In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering service to God. They will do these things because they haven't known the Father or Me. But I have told you these things so that when their time comes you may remember I told them to you. I didn't tell you these things from the beginning, because I was with you.”

How has the Christian or Jewish world imposed their beliefs on anyone? You imply some type of coercion. Is talking to someone and speaking the Gospel to them imposing or coercing? When someone wrongs you, yes, you are to forgive them on an individual level. When someone directly attacks you with the intent to annihilate you and your family or your country, then you have an obligation to defend yourself and those who are in your charge. Isn’t that what a shepherd should do and does when wolves attack? Isn’t that the obligation of government?

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@markx15,

Both sides of the argument make massive amounts of sense. I guess on one side we have reasonable people discussing the habits of some people (there is a general consensus that) they deem unreasonable. The others side comes from the point that they are ready to deal with these unreasonable people otherwise know as extreme Muslim's (XMus's). This side would like to curb what is believed to be the inevitable. A conflict of religious ideals, I fall under this theory. We can discuss the semantics of said conflict but it's conclusion there is not much a difference of it's outcome as far as opinion go? IMO what we have is a question of timing? There are those on this planet willing to meet these XMus head on but that as we know, is arguably not very PC or Christian in today's day and age. Using history as an example shows at times it was very Christian to engage marauding XMus army's and as in our US history of Jefferson's dealing with Muslim pirates demanding tribute. Then using espionage, attempting the first American overthrow of a sovereign nation.
I would prefer to not let them get past the point of no return. But thats just me.
On Marks note, it is nice to here from you too Tulip.

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@markx15,

Pino, it is not Christ like for you to be so high and mighty. What l read in your posts is human ego. That is not about the divine.

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@Volunteer,

People love to argue and love to be right even when they are not and love for their way to be the best....even if there is no evidence to support it...People still argue with some passion about the usefulness of daylight savings time ...anytime you out religion into the mix you are asking for trouble

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@markx15,

markx15;12532 wrote:

Noone is trying to resolve this peacefully, and in this case I doubt they could. Against the beliefs and actions of these particular men I commend your position. There is need however to remember that not all muslims are like them, many wish for a peaceful co-existence, unfortunatlly scandals and violence attract a greater audience these days then peace and friendship.

The thing to remember when dealing with this subject is that the religion of Islam and the Koran calls for and validates Jihad, which can't be described as a metaphor considering the fact that there's also stuff about waging real, actual war against nonbelievers, and hate speech against Christians and Jews. In the Christian faith, as I argued before, the Crusades were a rare Christian war (that is with a Christian label, not meaning all wars perpetrated by Christians) that had more to do with saving a culture than fighting for a faith, and they are portrayed as evil only in modern times because of one or two isolated incidents which were typical to all warfare, even moreso Muslim warfar,at the time (i.e the sack of Jerusalem), as opposed to an eternal war that will continue until that religion rules the world.)

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@Volunteer,

The crusades were and all wars of that period either tragic or agressive...
and it was not just a few incidents.. Not that the Muslim invasion of Spain was any better ...but European troops on more than one occassion slaughtered innocents and in some cases they were even Christians ...any war made in the name of righteousness is problematic at best

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