A Child's Abortion

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;73676 wrote:

Right. Religion is not an agent, it lacks volition - religion is not capable of doing anything at all, by definition.

The fact that you have angry questions means that you are not interested in actual answers. A person who seeks understanding does not approach angrily, but with collected inquisitiveness.

And by this you mean some certain person or certain group of persons? If you mean something else, then I can't help you as you have no idea where to direct your anger (which would be better off collected and crafted into something productive - like concern).

Religion is a construct of man not a divine inspired creation.The laws and the route it takes, is the religion, you cant separate the institution from its members.Its leaders by the original founders instruction carry out their wishes.If i have a fire in my belly and a certain distaste for the RC church its not born from ignorance or a need for answers.I dont really care what answers the RC church give because they are bigoted and biased.All I want is for them like so many institution of the faithful is to disappear.
If a political party made a law enforced with the same vengeful attitude towards contraception, the world and you would react with the same venom as me.If by a man made law it caused the death of thousands innocent children, you'd throw a fit.I have no inbuilt respect for religion, i despise them all, my anger does not kill or harm anyone unlike these perverted demands

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;73690 wrote:

Religion is a construct of man not a divine inspired creation.

This is a false dichotomy. Divinely inspired creations are also constructs of men.

xris;73690 wrote:

The laws and the route it takes, is the religion, you cant separate the institution from its members.

Sure you can. For example, Cardinal Desmond Tutu is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church, although the Cardinal is a member of said institution.

xris;73690 wrote:

Its leaders by the original founders instruction carry out their wishes.

Not necessarily. It is most certainly possible for any group to act contrary to the wishes of said groups founders.

xris;73690 wrote:

If i have a fire in my belly and a certain distaste for the RC church its not born from ignorance or a need for answers.

Then why ask questions if you have no interest in the answers?

xris;73690 wrote:

I dont really care what answers the RC church give because they are bigoted and biased.

All answers are bigoted? That's a strong statement. If, for the sake of argument, I were to agree with you that the institution and the members are inseparable, then examples of non-bigoted RC answers abound - answers which even you would admit are non-bigoted. For example, the activism of Father Merton against the war in Vietnam. His efforts were conducted in solidarity with the Vietnamese monks who demonstrated for peace. No bigotry, no hatred, just a desire to end a senseless war.

xris;73690 wrote:

All I want is for them like so many institution of the faithful is to disappear.

I am very sad to hear that you would like to see the largest and most important charitable organizations in the world disappear. I am very sad to hear that you champion such a massive increase in suffering around the world. It's also quite out of character for you, seeing as you're a generally nice and concerned person.

xris;73690 wrote:

If a political party made a law enforced with the same vengeful attitude towards contraception, the world and you would react with the same venom as me.If by a man made law it caused the death of thousands innocent children, you'd throw a fit.

And I stand with you when criticizing the RC Church for it's stance on contraception and abortion. The difference between us on the matter is something akin to the difference between Malcolm X and ML King. There's no hate or anger in my disagreement; that anger you harbor will prove counter productive.

xris;73690 wrote:

I have no inbuilt respect for religion, i despise them all, my anger does not kill or harm anyone unlike these perverted demands

But that anger does harm you. It is not good for the mind because it occupies contemplation that could be used to seek out ways to improve the situation. Seeking productive solutions is far better than seething in anger.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Individual catholics who make sacrifices or do good are what they are, individuals not the church they represent,i have no debate with them.The pope who is the authority of the church and by his direct contact with god determines the path catholics take.This is the church ,the pope, this is how i judge them,the buck stops there.
The hypocricy that manifests itself makes me extremely angry,it may not be a nice emotion or could even be damaging but nowhere near as damaging as the suffering the chuches decree on contraception.I have good friends who are catholics ,they use contraception but would not dare complain to their priests about the suffering its ban on its use in Africa causes, they have not the pragmatic faith to evaluate the word from the reality like my british catholics.Sorry but I have no love for organised religion it does more harm than it can ever compensate for in its blikered charities.

1 Reply

@xris,

No idea what blikered means, but your post shows up as 7th on a google search for it.

I imagine it is disparaging? If so, I think you are mistaken. The Catholic Church does a great deal of charity, good charitable works. Whatever else they might do, you gotta give them credit for the good they do, as well.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;74085 wrote:

No idea what blikered means, but your post shows up as 7th on a google search for it.

I imagine it is disparaging? If so, I think you are mistaken. The Catholic Church does a great deal of charity, good charitable works. Whatever else they might do, you gotta give them credit for the good they do, as well.

I believe he meant "blinkered". It's not too popular over here in the states.

Anyway, it means, "considering only a narrow point of view". So, he's basically saying that the narrow-minded charitable donations can in no way make up for the damage the church causes.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Then the description of Catholic charity as "blinkered" does not make any sense. Even if those who administer the charities have a narrow point of view, it doesn't matter as those charities do amazing amounts of good work world wide.

But that's what you get when anger overrides reason. Instead of being able to praise the RC Church for it's charitable efforts, these efforts are slighted because of unrelated philosophical disagreement.

Xris, that anger will only cause further harm.

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@No0ne,

We must remember to be consistent here: If we say all the bad things that have happened through the "church" had nothing to do with the "church" at all, but rather the people, then we must apply this logic the other way around. Surely, then, we wouldn't hold the "church" responsible for the charitable donations either: it's the people. Praising the RC church in this sense could be just as detrimental as condemning it - we really should be praising or condemning the people responsible for whatever. Really, all we're saying is that people perform good and bad acts, which everyone already knows. We just like to blame certain words, organizational scapegoats, for the atrocities of the world. But, of course, when it comes to the good acts, we'll soak up that personal credit immediately!

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Which is what I argued above, but Xris sees the people and the institution as inseparable. Figured I'd run with that so long as he sees things that way.

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@No0ne,

Abortion should be legalized without being rationalized.

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@No0ne,

When you combine dogma with power, and the power feeds off that dogma, you get the good and the bad of any empire. The catholic church has produced great charities, but also called for crusades. It has inspired great cathedrals, paintings, poems, but also created a centuries-long stagnation in philosophy and science.

It's an empire, an empire seldom with its own army but often with proxies. The good and bad of the church is a product of the human weaknesses that occupy it.

The most productive discussion would be how to augment the good and filter out the bad.

(FYI, while Archbishop Desmond Tutu is a hero of mine, and I'm glad you mentioned him DT, he's Anglican and not Catholic)

1 Reply

@Aedes,

You're right, he is Anglican. My mistake. I suppose the example of Father Merton would work just as well to show that an individual belonging to a group is not the same as the group itself.

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@No0ne,

You get good and bad in all groups, I think people get angry when religion is corrupt because it's an abuse of power and it's irresponsible as they are in a responsible position. Not all members of the group are corrupt but when it is a large group then the scale of corruption is so large that it makes people angry, it is in your face that you forget to tell yourself well so and so is a priest and look at all the good work he's done, he's not courrupt, you only hear the bad on the news. There's courruption everywhere, the fact the church is a very large organistion that you can see makes it difficult for those that do good to shine through. Where's there's power there will be a small part of corruption, i say small because it it was large or all then it would be shut down, close the doors. The good part of religion is that it helps people and that cant be bad. Jesus was a very wise man and the bible, well if everyone took note on what some of the bible said then the world would be a better place, for instance, do unto others that you'd have done to you,........goes a long way

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@Caroline,

Who represents the RC church?who is it that has direct contact with god?who do all the catholics look to for guidance?Why is the pope gods representative on earth?This is the RC church.This is who i have the problem with.
It not only kills thousands it creates poverty ,too many children,women are baby machines and then it has the audacity to evict a child because she had no other option but to terminate her pregnancy.
Thomas, christ new anger and do you think he would be happy that children die in his name.
Charities by the RC church are withheld where countries encourage contraception so dont give me any more of what wonderful works they do.

1 Reply

@xris,

Sure, lets ignore the facts and pretend that the Catholic Church does not help millions of people through their charities.

Again, Xris, I stand with you in criticizing the Church, but your anger blinds you from the good that that organization does. These issues are not black and white. If you don't want me to give you facts, that's fine, I won't do so any longer.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;74191 wrote:

You're right, he is Anglican. My mistake. I suppose the example of Father Merton would work just as well to show that an individual belonging to a group is not the same as the group itself.

Or Father Kolbe -- a stunning example of alternative to the church of his day.

xris;74235 wrote:

Charities by the RC church are withheld where countries encourage contraception so dont give me any more of what wonderful works they do.

Hmm, I sure met a lot of catholic mission charities in Ghana, Gambia, and Senegal, which all have public contraception programs.

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@Aedes,

That is a story. Absolutely incredible.

In Faith and Violence, Father Merton devotes a chapter to the Jesuit priest, Father Delp. You may be familiar with his prison meditations.
Alfred Delp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So many stirring stories from that nightmare. I wish these sorts of stories were taught in history classes when covering the Holocaust. Anne Frank's story is certainly remarkable and inspiring, but I think examples like Delp and Kolbe and the countless Jews who acted with the same courage and resolution are the sort desperately needed by our youth - the bravery of their passive resistance.

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@Aedes,

Aedes;74276 wrote:

Or Father Kolbe -- a stunning example of alternative to the church of his day.

Hmm, I sure met a lot of catholic mission charities in Ghana, Gambia, and Senegal, which all have public contraception programs.

Id be interested to know who they are,those who oppose the popes demands.

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@No0ne,

They are not giving out condoms themselves. They are working in countries whose governments promote it. You think the pope oversees every little mission school and hospital in the world? He certainly wants missions in countries where there is opportunity to change the culture.

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes;74322 wrote:

They are not giving out condoms themselves. They are working in countries whose governments promote it. You think the pope oversees every little mission school and hospital in the world? He certainly wants missions in countries where there is opportunity to change the culture.

Its not what you said was it? his influence and demand does go into every missionary.The RC catholic charities have tried to get exemption for health reasons but have been turned down on more than one occasion.It is a dogmatic stance that is killing thousands and your defence is going beyond my understanding.Not once have you condemned this popish demand.If you or Tom had just accepted this as a disgrace i might not appear so vehement.

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 AM ----------

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@No0ne,

I'm not defending anything -- in fact I personally will offer very little to defend the Catholic church and its activities in the world. I think their missionaries do as much harm as they do good, especially when their activities are solely devoted to proselytizing and not to infrastructure, education, and health. But to address your point, there are plenty of Catholic mission charities in countries that have national policies promoting contraception.

2 Replies

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