36
   

WHAT IS THE HONORABLE RESPONSE?

 
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 10:04 am
@chai2,
Kiss kiss, Darlin' . . .

I like you a lot, too . . . but i can't say more . . . The Girl is right over there at the stove, cookin' me some eggses . . . i do have my priorities . . .
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 10:18 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert, there are a large range of issues/situations here.

The most recent dust-up I was involved in (which interestingly enough pulled Setanta in... but it would make a good example anyway) was LoveJoy's post attacking immigrants which involved a woman who wasn't an immigrant.

In this case, my intention was to make a strong response, and I still feel I was justified in making a strong response. As anyone who knows me at all understands, immigration and racial stereotypes are important issues for me-- and challenging what I consider to be racial stereotypes is a part of who I am.

Even in hindsight-- given that I was sincerely expressing a strong opinion on an issue I feel is important-- I am not at all ashamed about my reaction in that thread.

Let me contrast that with another thread-- It was a thread about cleanliness where I attacked DrewDad in a pretty ugly way. Part of us was getting adrenaline in the debate... part of it was dealing with real life (and needing an outlet).

In this case I felt ashamed. Not only did I clearly cross the line, but the topic didn't justify anything like a harsh result.

In any case, I don't take these things personally. I don't hold a grudge toward LoveJoy and I will be able to respect her opinions on other threads. I certainly don't hold a grudge toward DrewDad-- I always enjoy interacting with him whether we are on the same side or not.

I realize that at times I can throw inappropriate "verbal grenades" here, and I will make an additional to show restraint particularly when the topics aren't important.

But there are times when a strong response to an argument or idea is appropriate.
sozobe
 
  6  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 11:13 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
So how to deal with it here. It would be unfair to tell [EDIT: a certain member] that's she's disgusting racist puke, and then pass over in silence remarks made by others whom i consider friends. Beyond that, i cannot ignore that many people here have a low opinion of me for what they take to be a propensity to lash out at others (for reasons which ought to be obvious, i don't necessarily agree), and that makes the situation more difficult.


Personally, I think the solution is to not call anyone a disgusting [whatever] puke -- friend or foe -- and then go ahead and call out racism when you see it.

As in, if there is inconsistency, I'd adjust it to civilly stating your disagreement across the board, rather than being uncivil to those you don't like and silent to those you do like.

Racism is one thing that I do usually feel compelled to say something about in this sort of a situation -- if I haven't before, at any rate*. There are some posters who seem to actually be well-liked by some but continue to say things I find odious -- I usually respond if I come across it and then go ahead and get into a tiresome back-and-forth for as long as I can stand it. I tend to take the position (especially in this context, when everything posted carries an implicit "...and what do you think?") that passive acceptance of really disgusting views allows those views to grow and flourish. And also, if disgusting views are allowed to stand with no particular rebuttal, the people who are the targets of those views may read and feel the lack of censure almost as keenly as the original views...


*At some point it's just not worth it -- the person knows what I think, and isn't going to change either opinions or posting habits, and the back and forth would be a pointless hassle. I do still consider who may be reading and sometimes say something anyway, sometimes not. Pretty case-by-case I guess and I'm not sure I'm consistent.

But one thing I've done a LOT of -- here and IRL -- is speak up when other people don't want to bother with it, and I've gotten a lot of gratitude for that, which is reinforcing.
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 11:37 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
They're entitled to be whatever they are and if you don't like it, you don't have to engage with them.


But, Mame, my dear, the trouble with that is that it can easily cause an isolation from social life or the necessity of only conducting superficial relationships which determindly avoid matters on which clashes of conscience arise.

The more you know someone the more chance there is of such a clash seeing as how many subjects there are from which they arise.

I think it is better to expose yourself to the conscience of others. There is a danger that one's own conscience is tailored to suit one's needs and others might have other needs to which their conscience is tailored.

I don't have a conscience myself as I never do anything which I might be ashamed of.




I can't agree with you. I don't think anybody has the right to question the motivations of others, unless you're the parent of a child (as opposed to an adult). If someone's a racist, I just won't deal with them. If I can't avoid it, I'll just change the subject. Why would anybody think they have the right to call somebody out about something? Their experiences might be vastly different from mine and they might feel justified in their opinions (let's say they're a chauvinist). And if it's just plain ignorance, so what? So they're a racist. Really, put it in perspective. It's ugly and you don't want to be around them, but they haven't killed anybody. It's up to them to improve themselves but it's not up to me to call them out or teach them.
OmSigDAVID
 
  6  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 12:50 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Just a lucky guess, Darlin' . . .

This is something which really troubles me,
it is an ethical dilemma that i don't know how to deal with.
Just politely set forth your views of the subject matter
in a methodical, dispassionate analysis, avoiding any consideration
of the relative value of any person or of his intellect.

Focus your attention on the merits of the message, not the messenger.





David
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 01:16 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
David, I think you're trying to pass on good advice to someone who isn't able to hear us. Bit of a shame.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 01:18 pm
@ehBeth,
Are you on ignore too?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 01:38 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Focus your attention on the merits of the message, not the messenger.


Setanta can't do that. Not even after being told that it is the only method that makes any sense. I got the impression that he is opposed to the trains running on time because Hitler said that they should do.

If you have had two pints the night before you post then it is worthless drivel irrespective of what it says. Coming from England does the same. And being a better writer and a more astute student of history automatically qualifies you for being ignored.

See evolution threads for other reasons you are posting twaddle, bullshit and superstitious nonsense.

By the way Dave--how do you phonetic spellers render "cucumber". Is it "quecumbr"? I saw a five year old spell it like that and I immediately resolved to ask an expert on the matter.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:10 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
David, I think you're trying to pass on good advice to someone who isn't able to hear us. Bit of a shame.
Well, I respect the right of anyone to accept or to reject my opinions, fully or partially.
He will then live with the consequences, for good or for ill, whatever thay may prove to be.

I like the assertion in your profile that:
"Each friend represents a world in us, a world possibly not born until they arrive,
and it is only by this meeting that a new world is born. (Anaïs Nin)"
A world is a sphere of cognition.
There are trillions of cognitive universes on this planet.
For instance, years ago, I chanced to pass a disused water dish of my Golden Retriever, Mike.

Leaves from my maple trees had fallen into it, and I saw a flourishing society
of diminutive forms of life. That dish was their world.
If thay had a Space Program, it woud have been to get out of that dish.
If thay had a Creation Mythology, it woud have been of Me carrying that dish,
putting it out of the way, and in a position to receive the falling maple leaves.
Perhaps there may have been rancorous debates among them
as to whether I actuallly exist or not, with some pointing out that thay have never really seen Me.

I have no information as to whether thay ever sought to petition Me
for the assistance of benevolent care or not.





David
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:13 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Leaves from my maple trees had fallen into it, and I saw a flourishing society
of diminutive forms of life. That dish was their world.
If thay had a Space Program, it woud have been to get out of that dish.
If thay had a Creation Mythology, it woud have been of Me carrying that dish,
putting it out of the way, and in a position to receive the falling maple leaves.


If thay had had a revolver, thay cud have defended themselves from the interloper.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:37 pm
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:

Setanta wrote:
So how to deal with it here. It would be unfair to tell [EDIT: a certain member] that's she's disgusting racist puke, and then pass over in silence remarks made by others whom i consider friends. Beyond that, i cannot ignore that many people here have a low opinion of me for what they take to be a propensity to lash out at others (for reasons which ought to be obvious, i don't necessarily agree), and that makes the situation more difficult.


Personally, I think the solution is to not call anyone a disgusting [whatever] puke -- friend or foe -- and then go ahead and call out racism when you see it.....As in, if there is inconsistency...Racism is one thing that I do usually feel compelled to say something about ....

That approach may work for you, and for anyone else who's never repeated ad nauseam that "there's no such thing as race", but you'll see how it utterly destroys any accusations of "racism" by Setanta against anybody at all. Squaring the circle has got to be easier than observing the rules of logic while engaged in a "political correctness" syllogism - even the White Queen would recoil from such a monstrosity in horror Smile
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 03:18 pm
@spendius,
David wrote:
Focus your attention on the merits of the message, not the messenger.
spendius wrote:
Setanta can't do that.
Not even after being told that it is the only method that makes any sense.
I have addressed that issue several times in the past.
Having been advised that he posted on one of my threads,
I took Setanta off Ignore last night.
I choose not to reprise my thoughts of his incapacities now,
in a spirit of amity (of whatever duration that will prove to be).
I am not taunting him at the moment, and I will accord him
an appropriate degree of respect, until circumstances suggest
a re-consideration of what is appropriate.



spendius wrote:
If you have had two pints the night before you post then it is worthless drivel irrespective of what it says.
Coming from England does the same.
And being a better writer and a more astute student of history automatically qualifies you for being ignored.
Understood; I wish to avoid uttering any untoward characterizations of him, unless provoked anew.




spendius wrote:
By the way Dave--how do you phonetic spellers render "cucumber". Is it "quecumbr"?
I saw a five year old spell it like that and I immediately resolved to ask an expert on the matter.
I respectfully decline to accept the characterization of expertise in the matter,
tho if I were on a committee of fonetic spellers writing a new dictionary,
in the interest of simplicity, I 'd probably go for: kucumber.





David
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 03:55 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
and I will accord him
an appropriate degree of respect, until circumstances suggest
a re-consideration of what is appropriate.


I might consider that myself if he was to apologise to me for all the nasty remarks he has made about me and beg me to forget he ever said them. Until such time as he does that I will continue to insult him at every opportunity because by insulting me he automatically granted me the right to insult him unless he claims the right to insult people and denies them the right to respond in kind. A right I think I am justified in denying.

PS. A committee to decide on phonetic spelling would be hilarious Dave. It would be worse than a School Board deciding what should be taught in biology, social studies, English Literature and history classes when small majorities are turned over depending on how well the President is thought to be doing.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 04:10 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
PS. A committee to decide on phonetic spelling would be hilarious Dave.
It would be worse than a School Board deciding what should be
taught in biology, social studies, English Literature and history classes
when small majorities are turned over depending on how well
the President is thought to be doing.
Whatever the applicable degree of humor may be,
it is a job that remains to be done.
Its like if u get a flat tire, u need to get out and replace it,
regardless of how unpleasant that may be, not just force your car along on 3 good tires.


Altho the vast majority of English words are perfectly spelled now,
there remains a small minority (e.g., thoUGH, and enuf being spelled "enough") that cry out for logical correction.
Teaching new generations of defenseless children
to spell the rong way has to end SOME time,
or spelling the old anti-logical, more burdensome and indefensible way will be perpetuated.

Texting is accelerating the end of foolish paradigmatic spelling.



David
George
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 04:39 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
. . . and all you folks outside Boston use way too many ahs.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 05:14 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
You bold "Done" Dave. Why not "Dun"?

"enough" is a joke. It means "overfull". Like wen eyt pints r enuf wen for wud have dun. The word is overfull of letters. It's onomatapeeya.
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 05:15 pm
@Mame,
Mame said:

I can't agree with you. I don't think anybody has the right to question the motivations of others, unless you're the parent of a child (as opposed to an adult). If someone's a racist, I just won't deal with them. If I can't avoid it, I'll just change the subject. Why would anybody think they have the right to call somebody out about something? Their experiences might be vastly different from mine and they might feel justified in their opinions (let's say they're a chauvinist). And if it's just plain ignorance, so what? So they're a racist. Really, put it in perspective. It's ugly and you don't want to be around them, but they haven't killed anybody. It's up to them to improve themselves but it's not up to me to call them out or teach them

I think I would agree with you, Mame

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 06:11 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
You bold "Done" Dave. Why not "Dun"?
I see no reason against that spelling; it had not occurred to me.
However, when I was using color and differences of font size
to a greater extent than I do now, I was repeatedly threatened
with boycotting if I persisted in weirding people out.
That principle of irritation applies to running too many new
fonetic spellings together at once. I shoud not overdo it.



spendius wrote:
"enough" is a joke. It means "overfull".
That is not my understanding; I believe it means the correct amount; sufficient.
I do not believe that enuf means too much.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 06:28 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I see no reason against that spelling; it had not occurred to me.


So much for "logic".
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 06:29 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
You must obviously have never left a pub with the words "I've had enough".

Quote:
I see no reason against that spelling; it had not occurred to me.


Do you think there are any other instances that haven't occured to you yet?

"Speling" for example. Or "grater". Or "peeple".

Make sure your committee has the pension scheme in order. Or the penshun skeem I shud say. And it has a deesent tiepissed to reecord the deliberayshuns.

Your problem as I see it Dave is that when you are composing you have so much of your mind fokeussed on taking care over your phonetic spelling that you can't give the matters on which you are writing the consentrayshun they deserve. Just as one might have difficulty doing the Times crossword when one has a bee in one's bonnet.


 

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