repressed memories

Actually, it more looks as though traumatic memories are sometimes stored differently, in a way which makes ordinary recall and working through problematic...meaning, for some people, that they dissociate or rapidly attempt to deflect their attention from the memories, hence leaving them unresolved and cementing patterns of avoidance of those memories.

I can blind you with science if you like when I am on leave Joe, and have time to look at and quote from the relevant research.

I have no idea when you formed your very set opinions, but the research is moving very fast, and today's "this is how it is" is tomorrow's "blimey, look at that."

Whether they are repressed in the Freudian sense or not, they certainly can become something that people strenuously avoid.

Breaking this pattern of avoidance is a big part of dealing with any negative effects of traumatic memories.


I think you have become so adamant around the American "recovered memories" and "satanic abuse" crap of a while ago.

The last major examination of that which I read a few years ago suggested that, at that time, this was a craze largely affecting the US only....although this was a a research examination that may be behind the times now.

Certainly, in my experience, and that of the general therapeutic community here, there was no major outbreak here or, as far as I know, in the UK.

I know there were people here dabbling in "recovering memories", which is, in my view, ridiculous and highly dangerous, but it doesn't seem to have done immense harm (with some reservations, which I will talk about if you like, but are quite different from the American experience.)

I have had a number of clients who paid attention to memories which they had previously firmly avoided, though they did not describe actual "repression" of these memories, and made complaints to the police.

In a number of these cases, the offender (usually fathers) confessed readily without ever being confronted with the actual details of the memories.....( a common police tactic, to see what is admitted to when general questions about non-specific abuse are asked, before actual accusations are discussed) ......often they confessed to abuse which the victim had no memory of at all, as well as the specific instances recalled by the target of the abuse.

Another client (who later became mine) really did appear to recover memories, (totally unprompted, I can tell you!! The therapist thought the person was nuts!) which seemed absurd....until matched with the records of the family doctor, which documented injuries which matched the time and nature of abuse nominated by the victim exactly....plus numerous injuries which were not recalled by the (by then quite old) victim.

I won't go into the fella, who was seen by a friend of mine, whose nightmares led to the long-buried body of his best friend.


Memory is a complex and highly faulty beast, and any therapist "recovering" memories is a fool.

Any lawyer knows how faulty and unreliable memories can be.

However, your blanket fiats about it are a bit over the top.

Wouldn't that be the same thing? If you are "repressing" something aren't you in essence avoiding it? Not just memories... people repress anger because may it's not the appropriate time to show it, frustration because maybe that frustration is unmerited and they want to think about it, laughter because maybe laughing at that time will be misinterpreted. Whatever the case may be. Whether it's called avoidance or repression those things still effect the persons behavior on some level. How can that be possible if they aren't still in the subconscious?

Well, as I understand the classical definition of this possibly mythical beast, repression was seen as a particular TYPE of avoidance, where the avoider became unaware of the memories entirely.


As it is used in most discussions of traumatic memories today, avoidance is not used in this way.

But I am no expert in analytic terms and definitions, and I haven't gone and looked it up.

The stuff you speak of in your post...eg anger etc....isn't being REpressed, (should such a thing be possible, and Joe is right, I've not seen a lot about memory that I can recall that supports actual repression) it is being SUPpressed...that is you are consciously deciding not to let it affect your behaviour, and using cognitive skills, for example, to assist in this, and presumably with handling the emotional arousal. A common and necessary task for those of us who choose to dwell in groups.

No need for any subconscious there.

Thank you dlowan. Here's the definition:
Repress:
1 a : to check by or as if by pressure : curb <injustice was repressed> b : to put down by force : subdue <repress a disturbance>
2 a : to hold in by self-control <repressed a laugh> b : to prevent the natural or normal expression, activity, or development of <repressed her anger>
3 : to exclude from consciousness <repressed the memory of abuse>

Granted unlearned people like me (hahaha) only have stuff like this to go on at this point, which is why I'm sincerely trying to understand this from a different perspective. I'm not necessarily choosing one side or the other at this point. I'm just merely stating my way of understanding it to see if maybe I could get a little insight from someone who knows more about it than me.

What makes it difficult though is the fact that until this discussion the ideal of "repressed" memories never really came up for me in my life. All I know is there are events that happened that I don't remember. There are large gaps of time in my childhood I don't remember. It doesn't make any sense. Yet there are behaviors that have stemmed from something. Where did they come from if it's not the things I don't remember?

I've tried many times over the years to remember the specific event of abuse... willingly... Why is it not there if all I've been doing all my life is avoiding it? Someone can't tell me it didn't happen simply because I don't remember it... even through effort... when the incident left physical scars. Oh, you mentioned Joe in your post too... I haven't seen or heard anything from him in a while... Does that mean he has me on ignore now? If so, would that be considered avoiding or repressing the memory of me?

LOL I'm SO kidding, please don't take that personal!

Well, one possible explanation is dissociation....although that is moot, I think, too....since we can dissociate without losing memory....

Actually, my whole first post was directed at Joe, not Boris Kitten...I simply pressed the reply button for the wrong post. Sorry if that was confusing.

There is, as I said, some evidence that traumatic memories can be stored in a different way from "normal" memories, and that sometimes they return in an overwhelming way when the memory is triggered. People tend to try and avoid those triggers.

I can't comment on why you might not recall other than that. Or...you may simply have forgotten. Or things happened before the time when people normally form lasting memories.

By definition I don't see people unless they have memory of their experiences, and anyhoo, I have worked predominantly with kids for the last twenty years, so I don't fool around with all this memory stuff.

The memories I work with are out there, although, memory being such a tricksical beast, one needs to be very careful not to lead kids, and do one's best to avoid others doing that.

I think the jury is out on some form of repression, but the area has become fraught because of the appalling practices of some "therapists" who have clearly influenced clients in the co-creation of outrageous "memories".

If you have behaviours that you find concerning, there is nothing to stop you from working on the behaviours. I'd not be stopped (likely you haven't been, and I am sorry if I seem like I am trying to teach you to suck eggs) by the presence or absence of memories.

Wherever the beliefs and reactions underlying behaviour come from, they can be subject to reflection, challenge, and change.



The analytic definition of repression is pretty specific...and holding in a cough etc is not repression in the technical sense of that definition.

It's a bit confusing because sometimes there are words that have a very precise definition within a field, (whether the thing being defined exists or not) as well as a much wider definition in the general sense.

I suspect Joe has just got bored with the discussion.

Thanks dlowan. That was very interesting.

good posts treya.
My sister recently told me there was quite a bit of rancor in our house when I was growing up. I just remember a blissful childhood.
I believe her. But I don't remember .

Since some people have problems with the term "recovered memory," is this better described as "delayed recall of a traumatic event"?

In these types of threads, ultimately somebody asks for "proof." The problem, though, is that none of the studies that I'd offer would convince you. It's the same in drug, abortion, and evolution threads, where nobody on one side of the debate accepts any of the evidence on the other side. I've already linked to some studies that, I think, are pretty solid. But I'm not going to spend time searching for even more links when I have no reason to suspect that they'd sway you or BorisKitten or anybody else who is invested in the myth of repressed memories.


I will say this for the very last time: I AM NOT QUESTIONING THE FACT THAT YOU SUFFERED TRAUMA. I am merely disputing your conclusion that memories of that trauma were "repressed."


I have absolutely no clue. I know nothing about your personal case history, so it would be irresponsible of me to offer any guesses.


The phenomenon of amnesia is a pretty good reason to doubt the existence of repressed memories. Amnesia, after all, is usually caused by some kind of trauma or disease -- in other words, something that we can explain -- as opposed to some mythical notion of the "unconscious." Furthermore, amnesiacs tend to lose all memory, not just bits of it. Amnesiacs don't just lose the memory of traumatic childhood events, they lose everything (or nearly so). A total memory loss is explicable: a selective memory loss, on the basis of "repression" and the unconscious, is not.

That's one theory.


Nope. But then application of electrodes to brain areas suggests that there are specific areas of the brain associated with memory, which is probably not very controversial. On the other hand, if you have any studies which show that doctors applied electrodes to a patient's unconscious, I'd be very interested in reviewing them.

That's not repression.


Yes, and some people thought phlogiston was the cause of combustion.


Avoidance of painful memories is not the same thing as "repression."


I agree.


Indeed.


Why? Since you seem to agree with me, why is my position "over the top?"

I have seen only a single post (DTKO at the beginning) which acknowledges the linguistic idiocy of this entire concept. If a memory is repressed, then it's not available to the subject--he or she will not remember it, because if they were able to do so, it would, ipso fatso, not be repressed.

To speak of "managing" that which is not available to the conscious mind is an absudity. I consider that those proposing that such a thing as a "repressed memory" need to canvass possible descriptions of the functions of the conscious mind, and to find a new term. Once again, if you can "manage" your "repressed" memories, they are not repressed--you would be aware of them. You might not wish to review them, but you would, obviously, be aware of them. Any memory which were effectively repressed, which were not available to the conscious mind, cannot be the subject of management by the subject, or therapy by the counselor, because it would would be unknown to the subject.

This entire topic suffers from fuzzy vocabulary.

Freud, of course, wrote in German. He used the German word "verdrängt" which really means "pushed aside".

That is pre-eminently sensible. Perhaps you can persuade English-speaking counselors and therapists to adopt such a more reasonable terminology.

which is pretty much EXACTLY what I had in mind when I started this thread.

Thanks, dyslexia. As author of this thread, your meaning should be followed.

I feel special! I've been bolded!

Awww... I was not bolded... please excuse me while I go repress this memory...

LOL

Seriously it really doesn't matter. **** happens and life goes on one way or another. The past is the past, the present is what it is, and the future is ours to make what we want it to be.

Well, it's not the memories that are managed, but the behaviors that result from the unavailable memories which are (and need to be) managed.

Things like intense nightmares and inexplicable destructive behaviors are cues to something which has not been addressed.