repressed memories

awww c'mon, you are going to ruin all the fun. The best part about recalling repressed memories is that you get to use your creativity to flesh out the story.

I doubt that very much.


I have no basis for judging whether something happened to you when you were a child, and I certainly never accused you of making things up. For all I know you are absolutely correct about what happened back then. But I am also quite convinced that you never had any "repressed" memories about anything, including any traumatic childhood experiences.

The concept of repressed memory is still undergoing clarification. Psychologists now use terminology such as "dissociative amnesia" or "delayed recall of traumatic events".

Reports on studies of dissociative amnesia have been published in professional journals. I was able to find a link to a pdf copy of one such report:
Neural Mechanisms in Dissociative Amnesia for Childhood Abuse (American Journal of Psychiatry, July 1996)

http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jdbremn/papers/bremner__neural_mechanis_07456.pdf

The notion of "dissociative amnesia" is no less controversial than that of "repressed memory." The fact that the memories lost through "dissociative amnesia" are often restored through hypnosis or drugs is, I think, sufficient grounds to question the legitimacy of the diagnosis.

Controversy and questioning legitimacy does not mean that the subject is closed.

There are many horror stories about false recovered memories (especially from the 1980's). However, advances have since been made in the methodology to verify recovered memories in specific cases and in the methodology to study whether the phenomenon of dissociative amnesia actually exists.

Linda J. Williams introduced a reasonable methodology in Recall of childhood trauma: A prospective study of women's memories of child sexual abuse (Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, December 1994):

I never said that it was.


And those studies, I'm sure, have their critics.


And herein lies the problem. Proponents of "repressed memory syndrome" (RMS) or "dissociative amnesia" (DA) typically argue that denying the existence of RMS or DA means that you're denying the existence of the underlying abuse (indeed, BorisKitten did it in this thread) That's not the case. People can recall episodes of childhood sexual abuse without necessarily having had those memories "repressed." From my previously linked article:

In our research program, the typical recovered memory participant reports having been nonviolently molested (eg, fondled) by a trusted adult (eg, uncle) on 1 or more occasions, and having been confused and upset, but not terrified. Aged only 7 or 8 years, the average survivor did not fully understand the unpleasant experience as sexual abuse. Understanding such episodes as sexual abuse likely amplifies its negative emotional impact and hence its memorability. In the absence of such understanding, the episode is less likely to be as memorable as it would otherwise be. Lacking a conceptual framework for the molestation, the CSA survivor managed not to think about the experience for many years, and this ordinary forgetting was fostered by the absence of reminders (eg, perpetrator moved away). Years later, the abuse survivor encounters reminders that trigger recollection of the long-forgotten experience from the perspective of an adult. Because the event was not understood when it occurred and was not experienced as traumatic, no special dissociative mechanism is needed to explain why the person did not think about it for so long. Once CSA survivors in our research program have recalled the event as adults, usually outside the context of therapy, they tend to experience intense distress, and nearly one third of them qualify for PTSD. (emphasis added)

I got the impression that your conclusions about the general subject of repressed memory are not open to any kind of revision:

All of my conclusions are subject to revision. But, as Hume pointed out when discussing miracles, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I suppose if someone had incontrovertible proof of demon possession, I would have to reevaluate quite a lot of what I think about psychology (and religion), but I just don't expect anyone to come up with that evidence any time soon. Likewise, with "repressed memories," which is about on par with the notion of demon possession, I'm not counting on anyone coming forward with convincing evidence. If it happens, though, I'd like to think that I'll keep an open mind.

I don't believe in "demon possession" either. Why do you feel "repressed memories" are about par with "demon possession"?

"Repressed memory syndrome" works on the assumption that there is a place where memories go to lie dormant until called up by some triggering event. But that's not how memory works. There is no "subconscious" (or Freudian "unconscious") for memories to hide out until they get called back into consciousness. And if there's no subconscious, then there's nowhere for those "repressed" memories to hide. Nobody has come up with a satisfactory mechanism to explain "repression" without resorting to the subconscious, which is kind of like saying that "repressed" memories go to reside in a "magical place."

Now, if someone could prove that there's such a thing as the "subconscious," then I suppose I'd have to revisit my opinions regarding "repressed memories." So far, though, nobody has ever come close to proving there is a subconscious, let alone that there are such things as "repressed memories." As such, the subconscious -- and all theories that rely upon the existence of the subconscious -- inhabits the same domain as leprechauns, unicorns, and demons

Similarly, no physicist has come up with a satisfactory mechanism to demonstrate physical particles responsible for gravitational force. (Some kind of invisible magic causing gravity?)

As far as the existence of an unconscious mind, some point to dreams and automatic body processes such as breathing.

Apples and oranges. A physicist who proposes that gravity is the result of physical particles should come forward with an empirical theory that is grounded in the scientific method and that is potentially falsifiable. If he doesn't, then he might as well be saying "it's all caused by magic" -- even if he's actually right. In contrast, theories that rely on the subconscious are not falsifiable. That is the equivalent of saying "it's all caused by magic."


I don't deny that there's an unconscious. After all, I'm unconscious most every night. I do deny, however, the existence of the Freudian unconscious, i.e. the place where repressed memories go to hide.

Isaac Newton himself lamented the fact that he could not identify such particles. Modern physicists have named such particles "gravitrons" but have been unable to demonstrate their existence.

Karl Popper's objections to the theories of Freud during the 1930's was focused on the apparent impossibility of designing experiments to test them. However, the theories have been tested in recent decades by clinical studies. Karl Popper is also famous for saying, "You may be right. I may be wrong. Together, we may come closer to the truth."

Hi there BK. Well it sounds like you had a pretty rough childhood. Me too. The thing to remember here is that sometimes people don't realize they actually have the choice to live differently than how they are currently living. For some people being brought up in abuse is just "normal" to them because that is all they know. Why should they question when that's all they've known, seen, been surrounded by?

There's healthy, and unhealthy aspects to life, people, and situations we are taught to deal with. If you are brought up in an unhealthy environment... well to you that is "healthy" unless at some point you are able to see different. Sadly though sometimes people don't ever get the opportunity to see the difference between healthy and unhealthy. They subconsciously choose to live in the unhealthy because that is all they know and that is where they are most comfortable.

I've never had either hypnosis or drugs, despite my many years of therapy.

And your strident denials of the existence of something I've experienced for myself are not, I'm afraid, in the least bit convincing.

Hey there Joe. I'm curious about something. How do you explain someone who has only maybe two memories from the age of 5 yrs old to 8 yrs old? Do you think there was just nothing significant that happened in that time for them to remember?

I'm glad to hear it.


No doubt. I'm sure I would have just as much trouble convincing someone they hadn't seen ghosts or hadn't been possessed by demons. But then I'm really not interested in convincing you that your memories aren't true. As I said before, for all I know your memories are completely accurate. I'm not disputing their accuracy, I'm disputing their repression.

Young children process information differently from older children or adults. That's why none of us have memories of when we were babies. If an adult has only two memories from ages 5 to 8, I wouldn't consider that terribly remarkable, and I certainly wouldn't conclude, based solely on that evidence, that all the rest of that person's memories from those years have been repressed. I might just as easily conclude that those memories have been stolen by fairies.

Oh, my dear Joe, you poor thing! Your claims of open-mindedness seem weak indeed, to me.

Let's clarify, shall we? I had 4 siblings (all same parents) all of them older than me.

Many years BEFORE any of my siblings began to describe their own experiences, I experienced severe emotional difficulties, without explanation.

For example, when I was 14 I was taken to our local hospital's ER for an anxiety attack. At the same age, I experienced a neck pain so intense I was unable to move my head for 2 days without severe pain.

When I was 14 and 15 I spent about a year seeing a psychiatrist because I was so very troubled, anxious, and unhappy. This particular fellow was, in my opinion, no help at all. He did NOT mention repression of memories, nor did he know of the existence of repression. He neither hypnotized me nor gave me any drugs.

In fact, he suggested that I "wanted" to have sex with my father, thus explaining why I "imagined" I had sex with my father (and brother). I did NOT want either experience; I was clear on that then, and I'm still clear on that now, over 30 years later.

Now THAT is Freudian. Telling me I was "living out fantasies in my mind" about my father and brother.

This WAS, however, the same thing my mother told me when I was 4 years old. "Oh, you want him!" (My father.) No thanks, I did NOT. I guess, given the "professionalism" of this psychiatrist, I simply accepted his view.

This explains the misery of my subsequent teenage years. I was bad, I was born bad, and I'd forever be bad. Any fault could be laid on ME.

I still clearly recall my mother's reply when I accused my father of raping when I was 4 (or 5) years old. She said: "He's MY husband, not YOURS!"

As if I wanted a husband at that age. I did not.

Do you actually think that my troubles, at this age and in the early 1970's, were due to "False Memory Syndrome," which took another 30 years to be "Invented?"

Only 7 years later (my early 20's) did I hear "stories" from my elder siblings about "blood on the walls" during our shared childhoods. What a surprise this was to me!

All of my older siblings had moved out by the time I was 12, so I knew nothing of what they themselves remembered. And no, I had no contact with them in the interim.

BTW, nobody knew who's blood it was, at the time, and frankly nobody cared, they were too busy trying to protect themselves.

I was, however, very much helped by these accounts in my 20's, from siblings. Why? I knew it wasn't "just me," as my mother always claimed.

One sister told me how our father, when I was learning to walk, would hold both of my hands together over my head, and slap my face.

A different sister told me how our father would poke me with my diaper pins (which still existed in the 1960's, when I was an infant) in another room.

This sister would, she said, bang on the door (hearing my cries) over and over, trying to help me, to stop it, to ease my pain, but she never was able to open the door. This particular sister shot herself in the head when she was 36, and I was 30. Why yes, she is dead.

I've stated before, I have only one living sibling (I'm 48 years old). This sibling (female) has had no contact with any other family members in the past 15 years.

My mother has no grandchildren, although she had five children.

To deny that our childhoods were full of horrific abuse, in my opinion, is sort of like viewing a burned-out city from a sci-fi movie, and saying, "Oh, Nothing Happened Here. This city was idyllic and joyful."

I know I'll never convince you of the veracity of my statements.

I do, however, wish you to think one thought: WHAT IF all that I am claiming to be true actually IS true?

How would you feel then?

For me, there's no longer any doubt that I am correct in my recovery of repressed memories.

Your opinions are, well, hardly worth noticing, and frankly I'm surprised that I took this much time to address them.

I'd guess I'm thinking of all those OTHER children and adults, who are accused of "demonic possession" when they remember things they've previously forgotten. They need help. Desperately.

Me, well, I'm fine. I'm old enough to be fine. Good wishes to you, Joe.

I guess now I posted all this for people who are still suffering. You've no idea, Joe, of the suffering involved.

Should I be able to listen to anyone who's had repressed memories or childhood abuse like mine, please feel free Private-Message me.

I can, at least, listen to you.