The Jews.

nimh asked


I think that, as regards these predudices in Middle East, it is largely a reaction to the Zionist incursion to Palestine beginning in the mid nineteenth century, culminating in their arrogation thereof by the mid twentieth.

Do ya guys think Shakespeare was anti-Semitic? I've never read The Merchant of Venice or seen it performed so Ise curious what you think.

Although many have had a knee-jerk reaction to the Shylock character in Merchant of Venice as anti-semitic, I think it was actually a very sensitive portrayal of a hated people, considering the time it was written.

Hmm, there aren't any movies based on it, are there? I'm far too lazy to go read the whole play right now.

Hmmm - I think he makes Shylock very human - and a marvellous character - he came to dominate most interpretations of the play - but - there is the whole pound of flesh thing, you know! Now - that is partly explained in the play as Shylock's desire for revenge against those who have baited and hated him - and he has most wonderful lines of dialogue where he turns the faults and logic of the christians against them.

He diminishes when he is outsmarted by Portia - and must fall back upon christian mercy - which, I think, diminishes the play - when read through modern eyes - as its protagonist is again made the stock figure of christian prejudice and "fun". Nonetheless, it asks a very modern question - does oppression and mistreatment justify appalling revenge?

There are lots of films, Monger - I just googled!

Cool..

Infrablue


That is a rediculous question. To begin with I have no idea what you are specigfically referencing when you speak of Talmudic anti-Christianity. However,whether it does or does not there is no way to change 2000 year old scripture. Who do you suppose would or would be empowered to do this. As for your self generated term again what exactly does it mean. Anti-Goyism.



When and where did you read this in any of my statements.

Not only do you generate a new terms but you read what is not been said.



That sounds like a quote right out of the Nazi playbook.Or a quote from the Malaysian prime minister.



Than what the hell are you complaining about?

I leave you with a thought
Only a masochist would love his oppressors. And only an idiot would trust them.

Jews first appeared in Morocco more than two millennia ago, traveling there in association with Phoenician traders. The first substantial Jewish settlements developed in 586 BC when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem. The community grew as an outpost of Palestine, maintaining close ties with the Jewish homeland even as North Africa rose in rebellion against Roman Emperors Trajan and Hadrian. While they were not rebelling, the Jews lived in relative tranquillity, allowed to maintain their status as a distinct nation throughout the Pax Romana. However, after Constantine made Christianity the law of the land in the 4th century A.D. the Romans started making laws against the Jews. Byzantine Emperor Justinian solidified these laws, and held Jews in contempt until the Muslims conquered the land in the 7th century.

As early as Roman times, Moroccan Jews had begun to travel inland to trade with groups of Berbers, most of whom were nomads who dwelled in remote areas of the Atlas Mountains. Jews lived side by side with Berbers, forging both economic and cultural ties; some Berbers even began to practice Judaism. In response, Berber spirituality transformed Jewish ritual, painting it with a belief in the power of demons and saints. When the Muslims swept across the North of Africa, Jews and Berbers defied them together. Across the Atlas Mountains, legendary Queen Kahina led a tribe of 7th century Jewish-Berbers in battle against encroaching Islamic warriors. Though the Muslims defeated Kahina and converted her ancestors to Islam, many Berber communities maintained their Judaism.

As they did elsewhere, Muslims in Morocco made a clear distinction between "Believers" and "Infidels." They developed a third category for Jews and Christians, "People of the Book," who hadn’t yet accepted Mohammed. Jews in Islamic societies became dhimmis, second-class citizens, who were allowed to practice their religion but did not have equal rights under law. In the 11th century Muslim leader Al Mawardi solidified twelve laws (the Charter of Omar) that ruled Jewish life in Islamic nations – they couldn’t touch the Koran, speak of the Prophet demeaningly, touch Muslim women or do anything that would turn a Muslim against his faith. The Muslims also forced Jewish dhimmi to wear a yellow sash, prohibited them from building synagogues taller than a Mosque and owning horses and did not allow them to drink wine in public or perform religious rituals in public. The dhimmi also had to play a head tax (djezya) and a property tax (kharaj).

Muslims forced urban Jews to live in ghettos called mellahs, a name derived from the Arabic word for salt because Muslims often forced Jews in Morocco to salt the heads of executed prisoners before their public display. These mellahs were crowded, filthy, poverty-stricken areas traversed by narrow corridors and dark, uninviting passageways. As a result of this segregation the Jews educated their own, leading to a high literacy rate, much higher than that of the Muslim community. Some Jews were able to use their intellectual abilities to excel in business, further separating themselves from the rest of Muslim society.

The Moroccan Jewish community experienced a population explosion in the 15th and 16th centuries as Inquisition exiles fled from Spain and Portugal. The Spanish Jews were very different from the North African Jews, but they tolerated each other, sharing both customs and meager resources. Ottoman Turks tolerated the Jews but did them no special favors. When most Moroccan Jews welcomed the French declaration of the Moroccan Protectorate 1912, frustrated Muslims reacted by massacring Jews in the Fez mellah. Jews became Moroccan citizens under the Protectorate, though they were not afforded political equality. A fierce independence rebellion broke out in 1947 on the heels of subsequent Vichy French and Allied occupations of North Africa. The independence movement succeeded in 1955. As Morocco’s new Muslim government became more friendly with the Arab League, the Jewish position grew more uncertain; Jews tried to escape from Morocco but government troops captured and jailed them. In 1961 King Hassan II gave the Jews the right to emigrate, and a substantial percentage did.

Today there are several thousand Jews in Morocco, most of whom live in Casablanca. There are pockets of Jews in cities like Fez, Rabat and Marrakesh, and a continued Berber-Jewish remnants in small villages like Inezgane. Contemporary Moroccan Judaism is a blend of Oriental, Berber, Arab, Spanish customs, resulting in a variety of practices that combine Rabbinical teachings with a devotion to spiritualism unfamiliar to most Western Jews.

The Talmud (the commentaries on the Torah) began to influence Moroccan Judaism even as Jewish scholars were writing it in the 2nd to the 5th centuries A.D. Talmudic scholars like Rabbi Akiva traveled extensively in North Africa, spreading Jewish scholarship to all parts of Morocco; even in distant villages in the Atlas Mountains there were Rabbis discussing the Talmud. Moroccan Judaism developed along Talmudic lines and therefore resembles Western Judaism more than that of the pre-Talmudic Ethiopian Jews. The synagogue was the center of activity in the Moroccan Jewish community. Each community had a chief rabbi who preached, taught Judaism and gave advice; the cantor (shaliach tsibur, delegate of the public), would lead the congregation in prayer. Each Jewish community had its own rabbinical court which had some autonomy over Jewish law and was sometimes able to negotiate with authorities to soften anti-Semitic proclamations.

I read somewhere there were 700,000 Jews in Morroco prior to the establishment and now there are approx 35,000. Most emigrated to Israel.

I was hoping this thread could by-pass politics, and be used to keep up with the status of Jews--and broadcast global anti-Semitic attacks .

We have many venues to discuss the ME situation, as well as Israeli/Pal policies and the like.

I read through briefly yesterday, and became very upset at the direction some have taken. I'm not the Csarina of the thread, but can't we all agree to keep our eyes and ears open for mistreatment of Jews? Can't we all agree they have the same rights to life and liberty as the rest of us? Can we all agree not to excuse anti-Semitism based on our political opinions about Israel?

The Jewish people aren't the only ones beaten and bloodied by this world--the Kurds and gypsies are a major concern as well--but for some reason, it seems to me that Jewish people are somehow blamed for their horrible situation, while other groups aren't.

I wanted to keep the plight of Jewish people recorded here. If some are interested in history, Israel or peripheral issues, please carry those discussions on elsewhere. Just a sincere request. I am interested in attacks on Christians in the Philippines, and atrocities against other groups--but they merit their own thread, IMO. Introduced here, it has the seeming intent to dilute the intent of this thread.

I assuredly didn't have in mind to start another thread where my Jewish friends could come under yet another assault.

I'm quite sure I helped sidetrack the thread. Sorry 'bout that Sofia..I too would like to see this one stay more or less on topic, seeing as it's an issue that's important to keep an eye on.

au just perfectly demonstrated what i was talking about in my 1st post in this topic so my work here is done.

au,
How do you figure that my statement

sounds right out of the Nazi playbook, or a quote from the Malaysian prime minister?

You wrote


What the hell I'm complaining about is that you drag your red herrings through my question:
Has Talmudic Judaism come to grips with its anti-Christianity and anti-goyism, and if so how?
Why is my question ridiculous, au? Because you don't know where in the Talmud these instances occur? That stance makes you ridiculous, not the question. Coming to grips with the anti-Christianity in the Talmud wouldn't necessarily involve changing 2000 year old scripture. That would be like asking Christians to change those passages in the New Testament which offend Jews. But the Christians, specifically, as you've pointed out, the Catholic Church has only recently come to grips with its anti-Semitism.

There are these passages in the Babylonian Talmud which speak directly against Jesus and his followers:

Gloating over the Christ's young age when executed:

In The Jewish Encyclopedia, under the heading "Balaam," it says "…the pseudonym 'Balaam' given to Jesus in Sanhedrin 106b and Gittin 57a." Jesus is associated with Balaam, a soothsayer or sorcerer, of the Tanakh (Old Testament). The association, in turn, is with apostates and apostasy.





About Mary, Jesus' mother one finds:


Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus' mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

Googling around the internet I came across this post which verifies the Miriam passage in Shabbath:



http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=245300

Also, the first Jew to begin codifying the Talmud, Moses Maimonides(1135-1204) wrote this gem of Jewish good will towards Christians:

Anti-Goyism means hatered of the Goyim. It's also described as anti-Gentilism.

Well, I guess any thread titled "The Jews" is bound to attract its fair share of anti-Semites, so one shouldn't be surprised that this one has...

The word itself is a red flag for some folks, it would seem.

InfraBlue
No you miss the point. The Pope was not speaking about something written or an opinion. He was referring to the mistreatment of Jews by and because of the Church.
There is a decided difference. You must have heard the rhyme Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me. Try goggling that.
How is this for a deal you can write what you want about me and I will feed your family to the ovens? Turnabout is fair play.

So Talmudic Jewish hatred is harmless, au? What do you call it? Benign Bigotry? Happy Hatred? Please.

InfraBlue, you originally asked your question in this context:



I.e., you were equating the Catholic Church's anti-semitism with a purported Judaism's anti-Christianity and anti-goyism.

Now, Au's original quote is from this post:



Where is the equation? Has Judaism "taught anti-Christianity for a thousand years"? Was it "a great purveyor of anti-Christianity"? Has that caused anti-Christianity to "still persist"?

Every single holy book says nasty things about other religions - we've seen enough Qu'ran quotes dragged out of context on this board to prove that Islam was an intrinsically violent religion - and enough from the Bible in retorts to that. But Au's point about the Catholic Church coming to grips with its anti-semitism wasnt merely about phrases from the Bible.

His point was - as that of many of us here would be - about the role the Church has played in actively promoting anti-semitic myths and doctrines, throughout a thousand-year history, and even engaging and conspiring in the actual mass persecution of the Jewish population.

Do you really believe Judaism is to "come to grips with" an anti-Christianity of anything of the same kind and consequences? Quotes from the Talmud are not going to make that point.

Here's a link on the "Talmud on Christians." http://www.iahushua.com/JQ/factsR4.html

No, for nearly 2 thousand.



Yes




Yes

Now mind you, they haven't managed anything like a Holocaust, but the answers to your questions are still "yes".