The Jews.

Well, if your thoughts shall be considered as fact from now onwards ...

The population of the West Bank, not counting the settlers but including Eastern Jerusalem, is about 2,5 million - say both the CIA World Factbook and the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics.

That means that the 200,000 Jews in Eastern Jerusalem and the 246,000 settlers elsewhere on the West Bank together make up close to 20% of the population there.

Even if you dont count the Jews in Eastern Jerusalem, just the Jewish settlers elsewhere on the West Bank alone make up about 10% of the total population of the West Bank.

So what is this talk about how "NO Jews are allowed in Palestinian areas outside of Israel", or alternatively, there are only "a relatively small number of settlers"?


You think so? Based on what?

Considering the months-long frontpage headlines, blockades and political action that the eviction of some 7,500 Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip yielded, dont you think that the evacuation of "much" of the 246,000 settlers on the West Bank would have, well, created a lot of news?

Not seen any? Thats because there was none. Despite what you "think", the number of settlers in the West Bank is actually still increasing - at a rapid rate. Here's the Jerusalem Post, surely a source you will trust:



Here's the Wikipedia page about Israeli Settlements in the West Bank. Scoff at Wikipedia as you may like, but their 1999 and 2000 numbers are from the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics, their 2003 numbers from this extensive database of settlements and their 2006 total from the above-quoted Jerusalem Post article.

The rapid growth of the number of Jewish settlers on the West Bank is immediately visible:

1999: 177,411
2000: 192,976
2003: 226,852
2006: 267,163

Thats an increase of 57% in seven years. "A relatively small number" and "a much smaller number now" my <expletive>.

Seriously. I dont know what annoys me more here. I'd like to say it's the underlying politics. But I think it's just the sheer laziness. Why cant people take the bother to look things up, if they're about to spout nonsense?

And this is what the resulting map of that "relatively small number" of settlements looks like..

Finally, this was not true either:


Any brief web search will find proof of that, but here's one indication:


Even if the number of 39 percent turns out to be inflated, it's clear that it's nonsense to say that "No land was taken away from the Pals".

What I find so fascinating about Advocate is his inability to see the facts presented by nimh, and continue to deny what is front of him. Advocate´s challenges are not even challenges, but a waste of cyber-space.

N's so-called facts are from Peace Now, an Israeli group that is pro-Pal positions. The map and other information are very questionable. It is cute how Ohmert's refusal to get into details is treated as an admission of the group's positions.

My "so-called facts are from Peace Now"? Are you joking? How did you manage to overlook the data from

• an Israeli interior ministry spokesman per BBC News,
  
• Israeli Interior Ministry numbers per the Jerusalem Post,
  
• Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics numbers per Wikipedia, and
  
• the CIA World Fact Book

I cant believe we're even having this conversation. This is ridiculous.

Yes, one of the two above maps is based on Peace Now data, and the last New York Times story I posted quotes Peace Now as well. But the first of the two maps I posted is from BBC News. And what does that map do for your argument that there is only a "miniscule" number of Jewish settlers in the occupied territories?

Here, I'll summarise the numbers for you - and this time I will only use numbers taken from the Israeli government and (once) the CIA World Fact Book, OK?

• According an Israeli interior ministry spokesman quoted by the BBC, there were more than 246,000 settlers on the West Bank as of August 2005 - and that was without counting the 200,000 Israeli Jews who live in East Jerusalem.
  
  
• According to figures from the Israeli Interior Ministry quoted in the Jerusalem Post, the number of Jewish settlers on the West Bank (not counting East Jerusalem) had reached 253,748 by the end of 2005 - and 267,163 by the end of 2006.
  
  
• That is a 5,2% growth in 2006, compared to just 1,8% population growth in Israel proper.
  
  
• Combining these numbers with the 1999 and 2000 data from the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics on Wikipedia, we get this progression of the settlers population on the West Bank minus East Jerusalem:
  
  1999: 177,411
  2000: 192,976
  2005: 253,748
  2006: 267,163
  
  
• Thats an increase of 57% in seven years.
  
  
• Taking the CIA World Fact Book numbers on the overall population of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem (2,46 million in 2004), that means that even the West Bank settlers outside East-Jerusalem alone now make up 10% of the population of the West Bank, and if you count the Jewish population of East Jerusalem, we're talking about 16%.

Do you want to contest any of these numbers? I mean, do you consider these Israeli Interior Ministry and Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics data "very questionable" as well?

You have asserted so far that

• "NO Jews are allowed in Palestinian areas"
  
• "A relatively small number of settlers are in the WB"
  
• The number of Jewish settlers on the West Bank "is much smaller now" than in 2005
  
• Their number "is miniscule compared to the millions who reside in the WB and Gaza"

All of this is horseshit. Moreover, it is proven horsehit by any 3 minutes of research, even if you only use Israeli state numbers. Like I said just earlier, I dont know what annoys me more here. I'd like to say it's the underlying politics. But I think it's just the sheer laziness. I find it baffling. You obviously consider yourself a big supporter of Israel and the settlers - but you dont know the most basic things about them! How does that work??

The population of the settlements, which is probably now decreasing following the pullout from Gaza, is a small percent (about 10%) of the Arab WB population. This is despite the fact that Israel took the WB and Gaza as a war prize following the attack on Israel in the '67 war. Many of the existing settlements will be dismantled.

Yeah, the Jews have this terrible habit of defending themselves. They were attacked hundreds of times, unprovoked, before Israel really set foot in the WB and Gaza in 1967. The Hamas government is committed to the destruction of Israel, and has never backed off of this. Notwithstanding the Hamas position, Israel is expected to embrace the Hamas government.

There is a lot of talk here about Israel occupying Palestine. To this day, there has never been a geopolitical entity called "Palestine."


"PALESTINE" - Never an Arab Country
One of the myths of our time is that Israel, before it was settled by the "alien" Jews and "stolen" from the Arabs as a result of "imperialist machinations," was an independent state called "Palestine" whose majority residents were Moslem "Palestinians". Unfortunately for those who would propagate such misinformation, the truth can be easily and historically seen.
The historical fact is that until the defeat of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire in World War I, there was no geopolitical entity called "Palestine," no Arab nation ever set historical roots on this soil and no national claim was ever made to the territory by any national group other than the Jews.

Between the time of the expulsion of the Jews by the Romans in the year 70 to 132 AD and the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, Israel ("Palestine") was occupied by fourteen conquerors over thirteen centuries, until in 1948 the Jews once again declared their independence. The following table shows the historical periods of the various rulers of "Palestine":


1. Israel Rule (Biblical period) 1350 BC to 586 BC
2. Babylonian Conquest 587 BC to 538 BC
3. Israel Autonomy (under Persian & Greco-Assyrian sovereignty) 538 BC to 168 BC
4. Revolt of the Maccabees 168 BC to 143 BC
5. Rule of the Hashmoneans & their successors 143 BC to 70 AD
6. Jewish Autonomy (under Roman & Byzantine sovereignty) 70 AD to 637 AD
7. Rule of Moslem Caliphs
Mecca 637 AD to 661 AD
Umayyides 661 AD to 750 AD
Abbaaside 750 AD to 870 AD
Fatimides 969 AD to 1071 AD 637 AD to 1072 AD
8. Seljukes Rule 1072 AD to 1096 AD
9. Crusaders
Ayyubids (in parts only) 1175 AD to 1291 AD 1099 AD to 1291 AD
10. Mamelukes Rule 1291 AD to 1516 AD
11. Ottomans (Turks) 1516 AD to 1918 AD
12. British Mandate 1918 AD to 1948 AD
13. Israel rule under democracy 1948 AD --- .

Thus, during the entire period of recorded history "Palestine" was never ruled by so called "Palestinians", the name adopted today by the Moslem residents of the Holy Land. The rule of the various Moslem Caliphates, which was a foreign rule, extended for a period of 432 years - Jewish rule of "Palestine" extended over a period of over 2000 years.

The inhabitants of the land consisted of the conquering soldiers and their slaves, and only during the Moslem conquest of the area were these diverse ethnic inhabitants compelled to accept Islam and the Arabic tongue, or be put to the sword. The Jews, on the other hand, are in fact the sole survivors of the ancient inhabitants of "Palestine", who have maintained an uninterrupted link with the land since the dawn of recorded history.

It is one of the failures of our media today that, while an almost complete acceptance is granted to an absurd, fabricated lie, no attention at all is paid to the fascinating story of the Jewish families and communities who have resided in the Holy Land without interruption since Biblical times. These people have, throughout hundreds and thousands of years, kept their national claim to God's given ownership of their homeland.

Arabs Recognize Jewish Sovereignty
These facts were well known and publicly recognized by the international community in 1919, during the Allied peace Conference in Paris, to which representatives of the Middle East Moslems, as well as the Jewish people were invited. At this conference, Emir (Crown Prince) Feisal, son of king Hussein (great grandfather of the present king Hussein of Jordan), who headed the Moslem delegation, agreed that "Palestine" should be earmarked as the specific area in which Jewish sovereignty was to mature.
He announced acceptance of the Balfour Declaration of November 2nd, 1917, and concluded an agreement with the World Zionist Organization, confirming that "all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantee of carrying into effect the British Government's Balfour Declaration".

These same sentiments were expressed by Emir Feisal in a letter (dated March 3, 1919) to Prof. Felix Frankfurter, Justice of the United States Supreme Court: "Our deputation here in Paris is full acquainted with the proposals submitted by the Zionist organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as modest and proper. We will do our best, insofar as we are concerned, to help them through. We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home."

Jewish Areas Reduced
The two sets of promises officially made by Britain - one to the Moslems and the other to the Jews - were originally fully reconcilable ones.
The interesting historical fact is that between World War I and the United Nations partition of "Palestine" in 1947, British promises to the Moslems were over-fulfilled, while their promises to the Jews were constantly violated and whittled down. Far from being the victims of imperialism, the Moslems were handsomely rewarded when 20 sovereign states were artificially established by the British after carving up the former Turkish Empire. These new countries had no previous national history or independent culture.

The development of the part of "Palestine" allocated by the major Powers for Jewish sovereignty took a different course. The area originally designated and agreed to by Hussein and Feisal was first reduced by four-fifths. Four-fifths of the Jewish homeland was given in a "land for peace" agreement and on this land today's kingdom of Jordan was established. On one-fifth of the remaining land, the democratic country of Israel exists today. In 1948, in the wake of 7 invading armies, Israel declared independence. The State of Israel consists of less than 8,000 square miles. Against this, only five Moslem States - Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iraq - cover an area of 1,200,000 square miles.

It should be pointed out here that at that time over 70% of today's Israel consisted of Crown lands transferred from the outgoing Ottoman Power to the Incoming British Mandatory Authority. The remaining 30% of the land was largely swamp and barren hillside: It was in these areas that Jewish settlement began through land purchase from absentee Moslem owners. At no time did the Jews seek to displace the indigenous Moslem population.

The distribution of land in 1949 in the part of "Palestine" after Israel was re-established was as follows:

8.6% of the land was owned by Jews.
3.3% of the land was owned by Israeli Moslems.
16.5% of the land was owned by other Moslems.
70% of the land was the property of the British Mandatory Government, after 1948 transferee to the Government of Israel.
Under the Mandate, the Jewish population continued to grow but while their immigration was progressively restricted, that of Moslems from the surrounding countries (Syria and Jordan) was completely free. As a result, attracted by the Jewish development of the country, the Moslem population increased rapidly and had attained majority by 1947.
Palestinian Arabs Never a Nation
"Palestinian" Arab nationalism today is a product of recent political and religious currents. Until the 1920's no such national community had even existed in "Palestine". This is why both the Balfour Declaration and the League of Nations Mandate charged the Jews of the National Home with guaranteeing the civil and religious rights of other inhabitants. No mention was made of other national rights of other inhabitants, as it was recognized that the only national claim to the area was that made by the Jews.
But the fiction of Palestinian Arab nationality is still being exploited. If the Palestinians were in fact a separate nationality then their anger over the past 20 years would have been directed as much against Jordan and Egypt as against Israel, for it was the invading armies of these countries which captured, in the 1948 war, a substantial portion of the territory allotted under the United Nations' plan to the Palestinian Moslems. This included the West Bank, which was occupied by the Jordanian Army, and added to their Kingdom, and the Gaza Strip, which was seized by the Egyptians.

The one people that have, in fact, maintained its historic connection with the area called "Palestine," over a period of 2,000 years, is the Jews. Of course, the Bible never uses the term "Palestine", but prefers to call this land "Judah" or "Israel".

Indeed, the Jewish right to the land of Israel is not based only on history and the Bible, but is claimed by the physical process of work invested in transforming it into an area capable of supporting life. It is the fruits of this work that motivate mythological Arab claims to the territory.

Dude. How come you keep saying this, when it is provably untrue? Last year, in 2006, the settler population of the West Bank grew by over 5% - a growth rate some three times larger than that of the population of Israel proper. And that was after the pullout from Gaza, which took place in 2005.

You have been shown facts, from the Israel government itself, and yet you keep making up that "probably", the opposite is true. What gives?


10%, yes - and 16% if you count East-Jerusalem. Is that "a small percent"? Would you say there is a "small percent" of blacks living in the US?

First you said, "NO Jews" in the Palestinian areas, then "a relatively small number", then a "miniscule" number. But we are talking hundreds of thousands here on a total population of just 2,5 million. Is 10-16%,of the population really a "miniscule" number? Would you say there was ony a "miniscule" number of Hispanics living in the US, "compared to the hundreds of millions who reside in the country"? No? Then why the double standard?


Well, I hope so, but as of yet, nothing like this has happened. The settlers won't go voluntarily, and after the protests the previous Israeli government faced when evicting just 7,500 permanent settlers from the Gaza Strip, the current one is showing no willingness whatsoever to try more.


I'm not getting into the ideological discussion about whether the settlements are a Good or a Bad Thing - my beef with you is that you refuse to acknowledge even basic facts, even when coming from the Israeli government, that disprove your assertions about the actual presence and numbers of settlers itself.

If you're going to defend the cause of the settlers, wouldnt you at least want to know correctly how many there are, whether their number is increasing or decreasing, such basic facts?

NIMH, stop the BS. I never said that there were no Jews in the areas outside of Israel proper. I said that they were not allowed (by the Pals). The Jews stay there by the force of arms. Unlike Israel proper, where the Arabs live in peace, the Pals have made it clear that, if they could, they would kill or drive off every last Jew in the Pal territories.

Your statement about the settlers unwillingness to leave is a joke. The settlers in Gaza, while protesting loudly, left with a minimum of force. The same would apply to the settlers in the WB.

The Jews are certainly rewarded for pulling back the settlers to Israel proper. An Israel supporter commented:

"As a result of Israel's being pressured by the insistence of "world opinion" (including, sad to say, by our own country) and also to some extent by the fatigue of its own people, Israel has relinquished Gaza, where Israeli families had been living for at least three generations.

Rather than being grateful for this gift of land and for the "freedom from occupation" it afforded them, the Arabs responded with spasms of violence, digging tunnels into Israel and killing and kidnapping its soldiers. And that is in addition to the almost daily barrages of Qassam rockets that rain into Israeli towns and settlements and infrastructure installations. They have caused casualties and much damage. The level of damage and lives lost could at any moment escalate."

Advocate, You're the purveyor of BS here. nimh responds to you statement by statement. Try challenging his response to your statements, not the BS you're trying to feed us.

Me stop the BS? I have not argued any political point yet with you - all Ive done is dug up the numbers to show that every assertion you have made about the number of Jewish settlers on the West Bank was simply factually incorrect. No politics - just data. From Israel's own government.

And yet you not just refuse to acknowledge it - thats par for the course - but you keep making up stuff like how "the population of the settlements is probably now decreasing following the pullout from Gaza". When the data from after that pullout, which was in August 2005, simply show this is not true. Both in the remaining months of 2005 and in 2006, the number of settlers on the West Bank increased - and rapidly so. Thats facts - data - from Israeli government sources. So who is peddling the BS here? What is your point?


What in my statement is "a joke"? The settlers in Gaza were unwilling to leave as well - you underline this yourself by pointing out how they protested their eviction loudly. That they left with a minimum of force pleads for them, for sure - but unwilling they were, they wouldnt have gone voluntarily. So what are you contesting here?


Who knows? The Israeli government is obviously not willing to even try, and in the meantime, as the numbers for last year (after the Gaza Strip eviction) show, their number is actually increasing - rapidly.

The goal is clear - just to wade into the political dimension here after all: the more settlers there already are, the more facts are created on the ground that will be hard for anyone to overturn. The larger the settlements, the greater the political opposition and practical obstacles will be to any evacuation, and the smaller the chance thus is for control over those areas to ever revert to the Palestinians. And this is of course what the settlers are banking on, as their stated goal is for the Israeli state to incorporate Judea and Samaria for good.

You misquoted me in saying that I said there were no Jews in the WB. That is the BS. Again, I never said that. I said that Jews are not allowed in the WB.

BTW, when in 2006 were the settlers in the WB counted. As you know, we are now in April 2007.

Why should the settlers leave, when the Pals won't recognize Israel, much less really negotiate? Again, there is no Pal legal entity. The Pals have a top leader, whose organization is calling for the destruction of Israel. The Pals don't deserve spit.

Advocate - I presume you are Jewish.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Given that your are Jewish and a robust advocate of Israel and a Liberal in all things that do not relate to Israel, I suggest the following:

You are a hyprocrite.

Under any circumstances (Liberal or otherwise), Israel does not stand as a bastion of pure democratic freedoms, and yet you argue until consumption that this is the case. In any other discussion you can be, reliably, found to take the position of America Sucks.

There are those who share your position on Israel and who acknowledge you as a kindred spirit (Can you spell F-O-X-F-Y-R-E), but I see you for what you are.

Jewish militarism is no better or worse than American militarism.

Jewish discrimination for cause is no better or worse than American discrimination for cause.

Get consistent or get lost.

I second what Finn just said.

I don't take direction from you guys. It seems that, lacking valid facts and arguments, you personally attack the messenger.

BTW, criticizing the Bush administration, which is so easy to do, is not attacking America. Duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Advocate wrote: "...lacking valid facts and arguments..."

Advocate doesn't understand the words he himself writes on this issue. When the responder like Advkocate ignores all the facts presented, there's nothing left but to identify the poster with adjectives that fit. Even your name on a2k doesn't fit when considered under this issue. Advocate for Jews while ignoring the suffering of the Palestinians makes you a hypocrite by every definition of the word. LOL