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The Jews.

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 02:12 pm
http://abbc.com/islam/english/toread/pr-zion.htm#protocol_1
0 Replies
 
yeahman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 02:45 pm
au1929 wrote:
ye110man
I said they the Muslims are at war and they are fighting it through terrorism. The statement by the Maylasian Prime Minister which was endorsed by many if not all the leaders of Islam bears me out. My statements, which IMO are true will neither enhance or retract from anti-Semitism. It will be alive and kicking no matter what is said.
I do not know what extreme Zionism is and I suspect neither do you. But no matter what it is, anti-Semitism is to me a far greater threat.

I suppose Zionism is a catch word similar to liberal or leftist.

i would say that zionism kills more people each year than anti-semitism.
are zionists like yourself, ignorant of of their blatant bias or are they conscience of the fact that level-headed people would never agree with them?
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Sofia
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 02:49 pm
You are wrong, ye110man.

I'll get you the numbers to prove it.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 02:55 pm
Let's keep things polite here....also, keep in mind that Zionism is also a term that has also been adopted by black Muslims and Rastafarians. I posted the definition. The extreme side of it is simply an extreme side, as with any philosophy/political view. I am getting just a tad annoyed with ye110man's vague posts...not because the topics are not worthy of investigation and debate, but because no proof of the allegations are ever cited. Post some more links so we can get into your line of thinking a little better.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 03:09 pm
I want very much to keep things polite here, as well. I admit it is disturbing to me that opinion is thrown out as fact on this issue.

I have a lot of material to go through to find deaths attributable to anti-Semitism and Zionism, but I will continue to search for it until I find it.

Even the small numbers of Zionists (and this is not a bad word to me) and the magnitude of the different groups actively attacking Jewish people tell me the numbers are very one-sided...

But, aside from that-- what other ethnicity is attacked in public speeches by politicians with no dissenting voice or outcry? It is wrong! It is dangerous!
Quote:
The European Union was asked to include a condemnation of Mr. Mahathir's speech in its statement yesterday ending its own summit. It chose not to, adding a worry that displays of anti-Semitism are being met with inexcusable nonchalance.

This is what we must pay attention to.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 03:22 pm
Ye 110
Quote:
I would say that Zionism kills more people each year than anti-Semitism.
Are zionists like yourself, ignorant of of their blatant bias or are they conscience of the fact that level-headed people would never agree with them?

My ignorant friend thanks for labeling me a Zionist, whatever you think that is. However, as far as I know I never joined the '"party". Regarding what and who kills more people Zionism or Anti-Semitism. I know how and by who Jews were killed as a result of Anti Semitism throughtout the centuries but not how Zionism as an concept does it.
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au1929
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 03:54 pm
.

A Definition of Zionism

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1893 by Nathan Birnbaum...
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 04:13 pm
au wrote,
Quote:
When have Jews killed Christians for there beliefs?


De Kere answered your question about Jews killing Christians, au. Pharisaical Jews were invoking Talmudic prescriptions of death against Christian Jews during the first century. Eventually, beginning around the time of the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, c.68 C.E., the Pharisaical Jews began a campaign of consolidation of power and purging of non-pharisaical Jews, and succeeded in completely ostracizing Christian Jews from what was to become known as Judaism.

But your question, "When have Jews killed Christians for there beliefs?" is a red-herring, au. My question was, "Has Talmudic Judaism come to grips with its anti-Christianity and anti-goyism, and if so how?"

Or, are you implying by answering my question with your question that the only legitimate accusations of hatred, bigotry and intolerance are only those which lead to, or have lead to, death? If so, you are in error. Hatred, bigotry and intolerance, for the most part, don't lead to death. They more often do lead to subtler manifestations such as discrimination.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 04:14 pm
There are many instances of anti-Christianity, and Christ hatred in the Talmud, au. There are also many instances of goy hatred and anti-goyism there as well.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 04:19 pm
Sofia wrote:
Quote:
The European Union was asked to include a condemnation of Mr. Mahathir's speech in its statement yesterday ending its own summit. It chose not to, adding a worry that displays of anti-Semitism are being met with inexcusable nonchalance.


This is what we must pay attention to.


So lets pay attention. A quick google will get you a fuller story:

Quote:
EU 'strongly deplores' Malaysian PM's remarks on Jews

By Haaretz Service and Agencies

The European Union on Friday released a statement of strong condemnation of comments made the day before by Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, who said that "Jews rule the world by proxy."

After a move by French President Jacques Chirac to block the EU from ending its two-day summit with a harshly-worded statement condemning Mahathir's remarks on the grounds that the conference was not the correct forum for such a statement, the EU issued a [separate] statement "forcefully deploring" the remarks. [..]

The leaders [also] compromised by having Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi, the summit host, criticize Mahathir at his closing news conference.

The French Embassy in Israel issued a statement saying that Chirac condemned the Malaysian prime minister's statements, but that he felt that the EU summit statement was not the appropriate place to express this.

Officials said the draft text also would be issued as a separate statement and would be posted on the EU presidency Web site, http://www.ueitalia2003.it
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 04:50 pm
Practical overview on reactions to Mahathir's speech (further condmnations from Canada, Australia, for example) through The Economist Malaysia news page.

This BBC story on it has an alarming side and a side putting it in context, both important.

Alarming:

Quote:
But the reaction from among the delegates and journalists was very telling.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai said he had not interpreted the remarks as being anti-Semitic, while Yemen's Foreign Minister Abubakar al-Qirbi said: "I don't think they were anti-Semitic at all. I think he was basically stating the fact to the Muslim world."

One Malaysian Chinese reporter with an international news agency rushed to Dr Mahathir's aid. "He's my Prime Minister," she said. "Of course I'll defend him."

"But surely you don't believe all this about an international Jewish conspiracy?" I asked.

"Yes," she said. "It's true. Everyone knows it is."

An Iranian journalist privately took the same line.

"Of course the Jews rule the world," he said. "Look at America. They control all the companies. The politicians need their money for elections so they support Israel."

These were not the marginal neo-Nazis spilling their views over the internet, these were intelligent professionals. They agree with what Dr Mahathir said.

Such views go unchallenged and are common currency in much of the Muslim world.


Contextualising:

Quote:
There is no understanding here of the taboo that surrounds anti-Jewish views in the West.

There is no comprehension that Westerners' views of themselves changed forever when British and American soldiers stumbled among the skeletal forms of those who had survived the Nazi death camps and discovered the mass graves of the millions who died.

The Muslim world does not live with this guilt, does not pay much heed to the distinction Western critics of the Israeli state make between it and the Jews.

For them Israel, Jews, they are all the same - they see them as people who stole Arab land in 1947 and who have compounded their crimes ever since. [..]

In Malaysia's racially diverse society crude racial stereotypes abound - the Malays are lazy, the Chinese greedy, the Indians drunk.

All are as bankrupt as any racial stereotype, but all are used casually by a nation of people who nevertheless rub along together pretty successfully.

So there was surprise that Dr Mahathir's remarks should attract so much condemnation in the West.


The second part obviously doesnt make the first part any less wrong or even any less dangerous.

What it does do is profer an alternative explanation to the "hating muslims" one. Outside Europe and North-America, people have ...

- neither gone through the intensive fifty-year process of coming to terms with the guilt of the Holocaust - which they had part nor parcel in and thus remains far from their bed like Pol Pots genocide is far from ours

- nor gone through the intensive self-training in political correctness (in the best sense of the term) when it comes to bandying about racial/ethnic stereotypes etc.

Which leaves them, when it comes to Jews:

- a collective obsession over Israel/Palestine (that can be partly - though only partly - explained by Jerusalem's status as a Muslim holy city);
- an overwhelming ignorance of the Jewish community's history in their own countries;
- and the very same stereortypes and prejudices that used to be so vibrant in the West before WW2 (and probably actually originated here*)

*that'd be an interesting topic, btw - are the anti-semitic prejudices that now abound in the Muslim world autochtonous or modernistic, 20th century import from Europe?
(For those feeling oversensitive: that question is not a hint at some "its all the West's fault" ploy, but a reference to how many notions and representations on national and ethnic collective identities that are currently held around the world originate in the birth of modernistic nationalism in 18th/19th century Europe.)
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 04:58 pm
Quote:
*that'd be an interesting topic, btw - are the anti-semitic prejudices that now abound in the Muslim world autochtonous or modernistic, 20th century import from Europe?

My 2p? I would guess they are the result of encounters with Christianity in the late 19th century.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 04:58 pm
"'Nother example is Vilnius, Lithuania."

Noone else interested in Eastern Europe's Jews? Especially the Lithuanian example is, though very sad, a fascinating one ...

I found it really interesting to look that info back up again last night ... 's cool where A2K threads lead you ;-)
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 05:16 pm
InfraBlue


Quote:
De Kere answered your question about Jews killing Christians, au. Pharisaical Jews were invoking Talmudic prescriptions of death against Christian Jews during the first century. Eventually, beginning around the time of the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, c.68 C.E., the Pharisaical Jews began a campaign of consolidation of power and purging of non-pharisaical Jews, and succeeded in completely ostracizing Christian Jews from what was to become known as Judaism
.

You are speaking of ancient history. However, these people I can only suppose were considered Jewish heretics. And as in any religion including Christianity the sentence for that was death. Again that was ancient history. As for the next 2000 or so years my answer still stands.
"Did you expect Jews to trust Christians after what was and is being done to them simply because of their religion and by Christians. As far as anti-Christianity[thats a new one] no such thing we simply do not believe that Jesus the pillar of Christianity was anything more than a man. And the rest is myth."
Again I would ask what is anti-goyism. If it is distrust I think my answer is clear.

Quote:
Hatred, bigotry and intolerance, for the most part, don't lead to death. They more often do lead to subtler manifestations such as discrimination.


When it's,anti-goyism, as you so aptly put it, it leads to nothing. However, if you check your history you will find just the opposite true more often than not when it's the other way around. And when it did not lead to death it lead to what you call not so subtle manifestations of discrimination such as ghetto's,restrictions, massacres and expulsions.

When have the Jews ever even been in a position to act upon what you call anti-goyism. Talk about red herrings. They may not have loved you for obvious reasons but have never done you harm.
0 Replies
 
yeahman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 05:44 pm
0 Replies
 
yeahman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 05:51 pm
au1929 wrote:
Ye 110
Quote:
My ignorant friend thanks for labeling me a Zionist, whatever you think that is. However, as far as I know I never joined the '"party". Regarding what and who kills more people Zionism or Anti-Semitism. I know how and by who Jews were killed as a result of Anti Semitism throughtout the centuries but not how Zionism as an concept does it.

you don't see how employing terrorists tactics to reclaim the promised land results in deaths?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 05:53 pm
ye110man, on an aside, do you mind using the [ quote ] function for pasted-in quotes and articles?
Make 'em look better, take less space and appear more clearly as a quote rather than personal opinion.
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Sat 18 Oct, 2003 06:08 pm
Oops. big time oops.

Goodnight, from Florida
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sun 19 Oct, 2003 04:12 am
You, au, wrote,
Quote:
You are speaking of ancient history.

I was directly answering your question,au. You didn't ask, "when have Jews killed Christians for their beliefs--in the Common Era?" or, "when have Jews killed Christians for their beliefs--in post ancient times?' did you, au. You specifically asked an unqualified, general question, au. You asked, and I
Quote:
When have Jews killed Christians for there beliefs?

What's ironic is that one of your rationalization of the arrogation of Palestine by the Zionists is that your ancestors had lived there in ancient history. Your irony is more aptly called hypocrisy,au.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sun 19 Oct, 2003 04:18 am
You, au, also wrote
Quote:
When have the Jews ever even been in a position to act upon what you call anti-goyism.

Anti-goy Jews have been, and are in postitions to act upon their anti-goyism when they have been, and are in positions of wealth, influence and power. Anti-goyism is manifest in the ideology, modus operandi and raison d'ĂȘtre of Zionist Jews and the state of Israel, and features such subtleties as self-imposed ghettoization, restrictions of the Palestinians, massacres of the Palestinians, expulsions of the Palestinians and the arrogation of Palestine in the name of ethnocentric, bigoted, separatist Zionism.

But your question is yet another red herring.

What I find interesting is that you continue to drag your red herrings through my specifically unqualified, general question. I repeat:

Has Talmudic Judaism come to grips with its anti-Christianity and anti-goyism, and if so how?

I don't care if you have never killed me, au, or have never discriminated against me, au.

What I want to know is:
Has Talmudic Judaism come to grips with its anti-Christianity and anti-goyism, and if so how?

That's an easy, straightforward question, au. If you can't answer it, please refrain your red herrings. Thank You

That you don't love me just breaks my heart, au.
0 Replies
 
 

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