The Jews.

So, the critieria is to find one Jew, who hurt or killed someone because they were a Gentile? And do we go back to the beginning of time to find this hapless soul?

This is disgusting.

I have never heard of an anti-goy band of maurading Jews, or any such movement or even tendency of Jews to kill others because they are non-Jews. I think anyone who forwards such a statement should back it up. To argue about anti-Semitism by citing anti-goyism is lame, and highly suspect, to me.

I hardly believe anyone could convincingly argue that anti-goyism is the reason Arabs are killed in the Israel/Pal area. So, throw the ME conflict out of the mix; motivations are not clear. I am more concerned about what is going on in the rest of the world-- Never heard of Anti-Goy gangs... I'd like to know who they have hurt-when-how-how often. If you disavow the validity of this stupid side-show, don't worry about researching--but if you support it as valid, I would like to see the incidents of anti-goy attacks.

<cursing..cursing..>

The only supposed proof of Jews going around killing non-Jews are those oft-quoted anti-Jesus, anti-Christian statements from the Talmud, a handful of misquided statements written centuries ago. Ancient words, in a book, pretty much ignored, and if not, simply used in private recitation by some devouts. However, the vast majority of Christian writers and theologians who contemplate the Talmudic verses cited earlier accept it as proof positive that there is Jewish-Masonic-Freemasonry plot to overthrow the entire Catholic Church, that it has been hidden from them for centuries, and that we are all in on it somehow. Show me the proof of this, please. As for the Church's persecution of Jews, that history I posted is pretty clear. Those were real, well-documented events. I can't say the same for the 'proof' on the other side.

Is one to seriouly believe the inference here, that liberals are to be considered the be-all and end-all of anti-Jewish sentiments? Or is this simply another example of never passing up the opportunity to take a cheap shot?

A) No I was not talking about "one" I said thousands.

B) YOU asked for people to cite them. I don't want to cite them because I don;t want to dredge it up. And yet you still get to be disgusted?



And like I said, I have.



So you can call them disgusting? I'll pass, see if anyone else is stupid enough to try.



I agree. I don't get why it was brought up here. I also don't get why, once brought up, the denial of its existence is attempted.



Fuzzy motivations don't count? Any racist can make their motivations fuzzy.

LOL, the hapless fool who tries to give what you demand will only be met with more arbitrary disqualifications.

You have already disqualified anything that happens in the nation in which Jews live, want it to be recent, AND want the morivation to be "clear".

I guess when the Israeli terrorists I mentioned said they killed the people because they were Arab their motivation was unclear? Ah, I forgot, that falls under the blanket "ME doesn't count" exclusion.

Yeah, it's an exercise in futility alright. A belief that there has never been violently racist Jews is indicative of a bit of a bias toward Jews. It puts anyone who contends that it has existed in the difficult position of dredging up old ugly stories and looking like he/she's bashing. Then you get to call them disgusting..

Yes, I will have to pass on this.

Terrorist groups make the news. There is a wide variety. I've never heard of a anti-goy terrorist group. I'm not under the impression that all Jews are non-violent--but where are the anti-goyim terrorist groups?

If there are thousands of anti-goyism victims, could you cite a couple? I have never heard of any such thing. (Really. I'm not pressing a point. I've never heard of one. Give me a name, if you will.)

The reason I don't think the Israeli/Pal situation should be added in to this exercise is the motivations are clouded with land and retribution for attacks-- I think a clearer look at "unprovoked" or unclouded anti-Semitism and 'anti-goyism' are in places where there isn't an on-going war. ...where people simply hunt down a Jew or a non-Jew (I'd laugh if it weren't so damn serious) and kill them for no other reason than their ethnicity/religion.

Craven-- It is really disgusting to be discussing the real threat to Jews worldwide, and have someone bring up such a thing--anti-goyism. What it says to me makes me want to cry or scream. I find it to be purposefully, deeply insulting to the humanity of Jewish people. I just hated that you gave it credence.

We are talking about people, not a political faction, or a country.

Anyway-- I see you choose to pass.
I thought this: was sensible criteria. But, whatever.

I think we should should accept that the vast majority of Jews do not live in Israel, and in my experience none are 'happy' with the situation there, nor do they run around beating up Arabs, but it would be untrue to say Jews have never killed out of racial hatred, but personally, I think perhaps the constant terror attacks and the politics of the Middle East have more to do with that than simple religion. I think this chart is worth taking a look at too, to put some perspective on what is reported on the war:

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440

As Usual everything reverts back to modern day Israel. What has"anti-goyism" to do with the present situation there. By all reports the Palestinians are still Moslem. Let it be known since we rule the world everyone else is hereby dispossessed. Get off but leave your wealth behind. Those that don't leave soon enough will be put to death. He you with the Mercedes park it outside my house before you leave. And by the way I hate you. Sound rediculous not if you were a Jew in Europe through the ages.

Ok, the Jewish Defense League is considered a hate group by most organizations that track hate groups.

Also:

kahane (labeled by the US state department as terrorists)
masada2000
Gush Emunim Underground (sometimes called the Jewish
Terror Organization)
Terror Against Terror (known as TNT)
Jewish Task Force
Jewish Legion




Sofia, the term antu-goyism is almost always used by anti-semites. I understand some of the revolt. But the truth is that anti-goyism exists. In addition to the few names I gave you the US has named 3 other Jewish group websites as terrorists.

Now I have given the names, I don;t want to dredge up more and "bash". Thing is, it DOES exist.

Cav--

I appreciate the link.

The numbers of dead, analyzed, show quite a different picture than the totals.

One last word. How anyone can equate the Massacres,beatings,,rapes, burnings,torture,expulsions and depravation the Jews have sustained in Europe over the last 1000 {since the crusades] with the writings of the oppressed boggles the mind. But than again there are the holocaust deniers. And the protocols of Zion. Anti-Semitism will always it seems be with us and both denied and or excused.
Of course this is again meandering from the subject.However, that is why the state of Israel is so vital to the Jewish people.

Craven--
Thanks for the names. I'll have something to research.

<grins> thanks for that one.



Eh - I asked these "simple questions with simple answers" in a context of a post. They were followed by this:

"[Au's] point was [..] about the role the Church has played in actively promoting anti-semitic myths and doctrines, throughout a thousand-year history, and even engaging and conspiring in the actual mass persecution of the Jewish population.

Do you really believe Judaism is to "come to grips with" an anti-Christianity of anything of the same kind and consequences? Quotes from the Talmud are not going to make that point."

Nothing unclear about that. When Au brought up the Catholic Church's responsibility for a thousand years of anti-semitic beliefs and actions, InfraBlue posed a clear equation about purported Jewish anti-Christianity.

Hence my questions - where's the equation? What comparable "thousand years of teaching hate" by "a great purveyor of anti-Christianity" that has caused "anti-Christianity to still persist"?

You say that, by concurring that there was that, exactly, you mentioned nothing about "blossoming" - but surely, when "a great purveyor of anti-Christianity" has been at work "for two thousand years" and caused "anti-Christianity to still persist", it must have grown and "blossomed" on quite a scale, no?

If not, perhaps the "simple answer" to the questions would not quite be "yes".

Well, Craven found a list, but let's clarify a few things. The JDL use a ton of rhetoric, but it hardly comes close to the Muslim sites in terms of "hatred".

Kahane, again, they make verbal noise, but their site was added to the "terrorists" list in the USA only recently, under the broadening of anti-terrorism laws post 9/11. They are radicals, but not a terrorist organization.

Gush Eminum and TNT were related, and were legitimate terrorist groups. They were infiltrated by Israeli secret service while planning to bomb the Dome of the Rock and have been out of commision since 1984.

The Jewish Task Force, again, not terrorists, just noisemakers.

The Jewish Legion could be classified as paramilitary, as their main goal is to recruit volunteers to train, to fly off and patriotically assist the Israeli army in the war. Not terrorists though, really.

A ton of websites have been added to the USA's 'terrorist' list post 9/11 under the nebulous new clause that they could possibly incite further terrorist acts. Also, again, most of these groups' acts and rhetoric have been directly concerned with the situation in modern Israel. Before the intifada, Jewish terrorist groups were a rarity. Through the 80's, as the war escalated, the number of suspected groups ballooned. However, for the most part, Israeli intelligence, and the Mossad, dealt with these groups with far more precision than anything the CIA has done lately.

Craven, you have proven that Jewish terrorist organizations exist. I also don't feel obliged to continue. I just thought it was important to put things into context. My guess is that if you want to talk body count through terrorism in recent history, the Muslims are way ahead of the Israelis right now.

Of course, this whole post could just be a Jedi-Jew mind trick. :wink:

Hey Sofia, I pretty much did the research for you there, albeit briefly, but missed you. Feel free to look into it more if you want though.

Craven
The groups you cite are I believe are associated with the Israeli conflict. They were splinter groups not sanctioned by the Israeli government and most assuredly not aimed at Christendom. How effective they were I have no idea. However, we seemed to have strayed from the topic again. No need to remind you that the anti-Semitism and resulting acts upon the Jews in Europe were both state and church sponsored. And unfortunately very effective. I wonder how may Jews lost their lives after being blamed for the "Black death" during the middle ages. And the Inquisitions let's not forget that glorious victory

au1929, I have to agree on the importance of Israel, personally....I actually went on about this earlier. I also agree with you that the way Christians, both fundametalist and mainstream, have used the Talmud as 'proof' of their outrageous claims of a Jewish 'plot' against their Church. It all reads as conspiracy theory, not truth.

au1929, here's a link to info on the Black Death:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1348-jewsblackdeath.html

Sofia, that was one reason I didn't want to cite it. Thing is, hate crimes are a dual edged sword. Touting them is the number one form of incentivizing. Number oen by far. When someone has a racial qualm they generally go about posting each and every one of their atrocities to 'validate' it. The most common used when trying to convince others of their opinion is a race crime perpetrated against the race of teh audience. The waters are always muddied. The ones who admit to having nothing other than race as a basis for their hatred (as opposed to those who admit to hateing a race but think it's justified) are very rare.

In another thread I said that my reaction to these events is always tempered by the knowledge that extremism is contagious. What I meant then was that when attention is drawn to a group's atrocity there are the inevitable ones who validate their pre-existing hatreds through the act.

When someone fixates on all that the IDF kills and does not mention any of Isreal's casualties a bias is clearly visible, just as when one does the opposite and touts every Arab atrocity.

There have been some pretty ugly crimes by the groups I mentioned (and by other Jewish individuals). I don't want to dredge them up. I call this an "argumentum ad nauseum" using a different meaning of the words. But those are just a few names I remember.

I don;t equate them with what other groups have done and with other races. One thing I admire about the Jewish communities is that when they can they take care of their own, they do not countenance racial hatred as easily as, say, Arab communities.

I have a respect for that, especially when considering why it is so.



I actually added that afterwards, I've been dumb enough to involve myself in a few discussions without having the time and when becking out am justifiably considered rude, after all it's not polite. Exacerbated by haste it means I sound like a complete jerk a few of the times and that time I realized it after the fact and added it. ;-)

Anywho, Sofia already got me to cry uncle and substantiate a claim I made so I'll do it again, but only briefly.



Hmm, I really don't equate them but do see a valid connection. I think the Church's doctrine of hate's source is related. I'm not talking about the "Jews killed Jesus" crap but rather that the birth of Christianity was immediately followed by a lil' religion war. Heck it was already testy when Jesus was alive. Why what with Jesus puling a diva act in their holy places and thrashing people with a whip I can even understand some of the rivalry.

Anywho, the subsequent years of Christianity were under the direct persecution of both the Jews and the Romans. And it was a pretty brutal let's-exterminate-them-all variety. It's old news yes, but the animosity of the Church is one of the things that did not sprout from thin air. Animosity between religions only existed in places where religions collided. And it has generally taken two to tango in these conflicts.

That initial brutality faded on both sides and the persecution of Jews by others made it hard for Jews to survive, much less persecute anyone. But yes, it has existed, has had pockets of survival and yes I think it's related, if not equatable.



That's unfair nimh. Those were two separate questions. You "asked Has Judaism taught anti-Christianity for a thousand years?". My answer to that was yes, it has. It hasn't generally manefested itself in really ugly ways recently but anti-goy is anti-gentile. And there is institutionalized shunning of the gentile. Not anything I even care about but it is a mild indoctrinated prejudice.

Then you asked if Jewdaism was a great purveyor of anti-Christianity. I answered yes. The initial persecution of Christians was among the worst persecutions of any faith. Celi mentioned somehwere that Christians were "born in blood" and while it's not true that they were the first to be discriminated against violently (witches, diviners etc were killed long before they were) it is very relevant that the initial persecution of Christians is one of the most severe.

So no, it hasn't "blossomed", the roles reversed. Christians are no longer the minority religion among the two. But the initial infighting between the religion did in fact persist in milder forms for both. And yes, both have done great wrong to each other at different times.

Heck, there are other religions to pick on. Sometimes there is even a "civil war". Christians and Jews both have had to set time aside for the Muslims. The region was cursed to have so many powerful religions arise in such proximity.

Arrrg! Please don't make me prove that there have been those who took up violence in terrorist acts. I named a few off the top of my head, just checking to make sure that I had the names right.

I do recall a few actual terrorist acts recently and I really don;t want to dredge. Both for the reasons I cited above as well as the fact that if I research it I will have to wade trough the David Dukes and ilk because there is so much anti-semetic crap dominating the SERPS.

But yes, there have been recent violent acts by Jews for racial reasons, off the top of my head I recal a black man being run over. I really, really do not want to cite since we agree that the violence perpetrated by Jews does not add up to the violence against them.

There are some that would call that a lie based on IDF killings and while I find them reckless I don't. I have agreed several times that the Jews got the bum end of the stick these days and suffer hate crimes far more often. And I do in fact admire the fact that Israel manages to quell their own nuts nicely.

cav, I don't have any background on "jewwatch.com," but out of curiousity did a Google search. As for credibility of their claim, it's not up to me to prove them right or wrong; only that it's out there in the internet world. Suffice it to say, I don't find any claim against Jews to be anywhere nears what they themselves have suffered. I just thought "none" was also an extreme claim.