How many people is it acceptable to have.....

Aidan wrote:

That's the opposite of a misogynist.

That's the easier part, I'm a philogynist too..

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@aidan,

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I like a lot of things about men

Like what?

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Sounds like you're just meeting the wrong men Spendius.

I've met plenty Becks. Thousands I should think. Enough to know that my view of men is not a result of my bad luck.

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You learn how to ignore it. That's when I turn on my music.

Do they notice? I regularly hear long married couples talking to each other in the same way that strangers do in bus queues.

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It's a reciprocal contract

Another expression for a deal. When an economic factor is laid over the sexual equation. If you say to a woman "What can I do for you?" with an understated but unambiguous knowing mien, they go all confused as if the economic deal aspect is all they understand. It's as though their personal identity has completely overwhelmed their identity as a primal sexual being.

At least once a week a woman will say to me "can I do this or can I do that". I always reply, assuming they are passable, (is that condescending?) "You can have anything you want." And once only have I got an emphasised "AYYNEETHEEEENNNNG!!!???" in reply. That's when the fear kicks in. Eyeball to eyeball. My bluff called. Am I bullshitting as Germaine Greer claimed? One certainly needs serious nerve to let her test you on it. That's not a deal. That's sheer exploitation of power of the type you see when buyers far outnumber sellers and the latter play games with it. Her pleasure being the only consideration.

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You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?

What are the choices men have Becks?

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@Francis,

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Your misogynism never ceases to amaze me.

I'm proud of it. To not fear women is male chauvinist piggery of the highest order. Didn't Bernard say that restaurants were threating places for men? You know the movie.

Misandrism?? I don't know. I haven't really thought about it. I fear the potential violence some exhibit--yes. I'm getting on. I fear no man in conversation though, but plenty fear me. Some of the phoney science freaks have me on Ignore.

I don't think we men have a choice if we are honest. The ancients said that love was a form of madness. Correctly.

Accusations of misogyny based on cheap dictionary definitions are just letting the accuser off the hook. And the compilers. It's the same with those unevidenced accusations that celibate priests are having a bit on the side. They don't like to think that some men can reject the "mantis's groom" idea. And the gilded cage one as well. And it's always men who say those things. "Well-they would wouldn't they?" as Mandy Rice-Davies nearly said.

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@aidan,

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I read that too Francis - but he said he feared rather than hated women. I took it to mean he was aware of their power and gave them their proper awe and respect.
That's the opposite of a misogynist.

No it isn't. That is misogyny. It's the opposite of the dictionary definition I agree. But dictionaries are PC. And superficial. The jibe "misogynist" is simply a device to protect certain sensitivities. Like "anti semetic" often is.

On the Madonna/whore dichotomy I think the Madonna aspect has been conditioned and the whore is the authentic, dare we say Darwinian, reality. The former is a Christian concept although some Roman emperors were on to it. Augustus for example. Were the upper class Roman women he banished acting out of character? What sort of sense does that make? They were the few who had real choices. They actually held street demonstrations against the Oppian Laws designed to restrict extravagance. Imagine that! Upper class women marching and chanting and carrying placards. (195 BC.) And against the periodic closures of the temple of Isis due to the general dishevellment of the ceremonies. Grauniad women are just one specific form of womanhood which has grabbed a hold on Media.

The Greeks simply locked up their women, apart from the prostitutes who had official status. Why would they do that if they didn't fear the free woman? It's all about property and inheritances and the orderly functioning of society. See what Delacroix said about Liberty in his maturity.

History, and fiction based upon it, is loaded up with the fate of the besotted male. There's dead heroes everywhere you look. Real comedy has no other subject.

As Joanna Lumley said in the insurance ad--"If you're really posh you can get the butler to do it." The butler was in the background dusting an antique telephone table with a pinny on. And the Irish butter advert she did was a disgrace. I can still laugh about it. I wonder if it's on You Tube. I prefer Johnny Rotten's butter ad.

Hate doesn't come into it. It's gallows humour.

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When Mr Obama brings in an Oppian Law I'll sit up and take notice.

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@Francis,

Francis wrote:

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Ok, but let's say that nonetheless, some are beyond good and evil...

I'm lucky enough to be able to say I've never met anyone I considered beyond good and evil (whatever that means). Everyone I've ever met have been fairly basic human beings- just the usual mixture of interesting inconsistencies.

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Aidan wrote:

I'm lucky enough to be able to say I've never met anyone I considered beyond good and evil (whatever that means).

Sure, ignorance can be bliss.

But you can give it a try with Nietzsche, just in case...

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@spendius,

I said:

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I like a lot of things about men

Spendius asked:

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Like what?

Masculinity-most of the things that make them different from me.

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Sounds like you're just meeting the wrong men Spendius

.

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I've met plenty Becks. Thousands I should think. Enough to know that my view of men is not a result of my bad luck.

Well, I think if there's not the possibility of anything interesting occuring, one's less likely to be interested in or patient with personalities and foibles or even interested in meeting.
Do guys really care about making friends with other guys after a certain age - say, after university? And if you're not interested in a guy as a partner or as a friend - I guess there's not much there to recommend him.
But it does make me wonder how guys act in front of other guys as opposed to how they act in front of women.

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You learn how to ignore it. That's when I turn on my music.
Do they notice? I regularly hear long married couples talking to each other in the same way that strangers do in bus queues.

I was talking about on a2k. I don't really have anyone in my life who just talks at me (as in oral flatulance). I'd never be so rude as to turn music up when someone is sitting across the table trying to engage me in conversation.
Jesus - give me some credit.
But yeah, I see people who're eating out and they're like totally silent. I always feel bad for those people. If they're like that out on the town - imagine what it's like in their home.

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Another expression for a deal. When an economic factor is laid over the sexual equation. If you say to a woman "What can I do for you?" with an understated but unambiguous knowing mien, they go all confused as if the economic deal aspect is all they understand. It's as though their personal identity has completely overwhelmed their identity as a primal sexual being.

I'm confused by this. In what context are you offering to do something for this woman. Can you explain this more clearly?

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At least once a week a woman will say to me "can I do this or can I do that".

Again, I'm confused. In what context is a woman asking your permission to do something?

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I always reply, assuming they are passable, (is that condescending?) "You can have anything you want."

Yes, that's pretty condescending terminology as applied to a person. Passable in what way? And why would you settle for passable or tolerable? And don't you think that's just perpetuating this woman's view of herself as some sort of bargaining chip ? And I'd emphasise the BARGAIN in bargaining chip as you say she may only be passable- so not blue chip.
I see girls all the time measuring their worth by how they look or what outfit they can put together to gain attention if they don't have the face or body to do it no matter what they wear. And they have that attitude because society's convinced them that's the only thing they have to barter. It's awful - and you're trading in it.

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And once only have I got an emphasised "AYYNEETHEEEENNNNG!!!???" in reply. That's when the fear kicks in. Eyeball to eyeball. My bluff called.

Yeah - because do you really want to have to pay up with what you consider only passable? Why?

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Am I bullshitting as Germaine Greer claimed?

I don't understand what you may be doing.

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One certainly needs serious nerve to let her test you on it.

Yeah- especially if you only consider her 'passable'.

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That's not a deal. That's sheer exploitation of power of the type you see when buyers far outnumber sellers and the latter play games with it. Her pleasure being the only consideration.

bullshit Spendius. She wants whatever you have as much as you want whatever 'passable' stuff she has.
It's a reciprocal agreement of the purest sort.

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You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?

What are the choices men have Becks?

I'd leave the sex alone until you get to know and like the person. But that's just me.

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@Francis,

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Sure, ignorance can be bliss.

But you can give it a try with Nietzsche, just in case...

So you've met everyone I've met and you know I've met an evil person- even though I'm telling you I'm fairly sure I haven't?
I'm not ignorant Francis.
I can't give it a try with Nietzsche - he's dead.

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@aidan,

I feel the language barrier here (or the will to do so).

I'll leave it at that...

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@Francis,

I don't think it's a language barrier - it may just be a temperamental difference. I
take a fairly optimistic and accepting view of people. I also try to trust what they say and take it at face value, until they show me two or three times that I shouldn't (anyone can **** up once). I don't often go looking for underlying or hidden agendas or negative traits.
I approach people very consciously in that way. It's not because I'm gullible - I'm not. I'm perceptive enough to know that when someone doesn't feel threatened with being misinterpreted or misanalyzed - they tend to deal more openly. A lot of the social games are dispensed with. It works really well for me in real life - not so well on here- but I'm not deliberately trying to misunderstand you Francis- there is no will from me for there to be a language barrier.
I will tell you I find these little one and two sentence snippets to be confusing- not only from you - even with native English speakers. I also found you much easier to comprehend and understand on the ID thread when you actually wrote out what you were asking and explained what you meant.

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@Francis,

I think that a philosopher would say that without religion there can be no good or evil. That the categories are nonsensical. The Protestant work ethic defines laziness as evil and hard work as good. But hard work coupled as it is now with modern technology might prove to be dangerous to society. The work ethic came in before the earth-shaking invention of the steam engine.

Thus all atheists are beyond good and evil. They can only be cowed or not cowed. Or conditioned as autonomta. Thus the aristrocratic atheist, like de Sade, who is not cowed, is governed solely by the pleasure/pain principle. The Marquis examined this problem at great length and in such a way that I take him to have been a religious person. He was brought up to be. He just called a spade a spade and dispensed with hypocrisy. I doubt "slept with" occured in his works.

Wicked means choosing evil and thus can only be ascribed to a religious person. Virtue likewise means choosing good. The atheist can only have strategy.

Queenie gives enough evidence in her posts that she has chosen to be slightly wicked. Why her expressions of guilt otherwise? Why even offer the matter up for discussion? The only reason an atheist could question her actions is in relation to practical effects. Is the strategy any use to her or any danger to her? Which have to be guessed at. Assumed. And it would be just the same if she had cocked her leg over the balustrade and serviced the hunting party. Obviously, one practical effect in a Christian society is to meet with disapproval which can be ignored and faced down. But atheists can't disapprove on moral grounds.

And if there was no Christian society to disapprove there would be no club, no drinks, no taxis, no conveniences and no colleges of art.

It's a tough call. There is no acceptable number of lovers without a religious sensibility. The government wouldn't answer the question I think. It might offer guidelines but not on any moral grounds. We do have an urban slang expression "a buttered bun" which is defined by Roger as "a woman who has sexual intercourse with a number of men in quick succession" and examples are often demonstrated in movies having a Library of Congress catalouge number and copyright protections. And which are shown nightly on European TV stations. Sundays included. I gather from young men of my acquaintance that some schoolgirls practice it in return for packs of bubble gum and membership of gangs.

Mr Obama has just defined the acceptable number of dollars a banker may receive if bail-out money is involved. But not when it isn't.

That is the Achilles Heel of the anti-IDers on the evolution threads which they are in denial of. Afraid to face up to. And thus they are not scientific.

As Bob Dylan said over 40 years ago in It's All Over Now Baby Blue- "the carpet too is moving under you."

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@aidan,

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I'd leave the sex alone until you get to know and like the person. But that's just me.

That's a principle I agree with although I'm ashamed to say haven't always adhered to. Mostly though. Nothing to do with morals though.

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Well, I think if there's not the possibility of anything interesting occuring, one's less likely to be interested in or patient with personalities and foibles or even interested in meeting.
Do guys really care about making friends with other guys after a certain age - say, after university? And if you're not interested in a guy as a partner or as a friend - I guess there's not much there to recommend him.
But it does make me wonder how guys act in front of other guys as opposed to how they act in front of women.

There's business. And companionship. Good conversation is always .worthwhile. It is its general absence today I was complaining of.

It's more a question of what sort of blokes you're with rather than them just being blokes. And how long you've known them and found out what they are uncomfortable with. Which is plenty.

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I'm confused by this. In what context are you offering to do something for this woman. Can you explain this more clearly?

Any context.

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Again, I'm confused. In what context is a woman asking your permission to do something?

"Can I take your coat sir?" or " can I get past please?" or " can I squeeze in here?" when they come to the bar on which we lean. It's only the casting of bread on the water. Test their sophistication so to speak.

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Passable in what way?

That they don't look like Baroness Trumpington or Margaret Rutherford or the wife in the famous Ocean Finance advert. Do you think I'm choosy? Don't forget that the ones who I wouldn't say it to don't notice my not saying it. Blimey Becks! Are you being obtuse. The ones I fancy of course which is a pretty large group.

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It's awful - and you're trading in it.

So! What's the alternative? Society is as it is. That lot are trading who are tarting themselves up in the dress shops and beauty salons. And often with their husband's hard earned wages.

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I don't understand what you may be doing.

Having a bit of fun and treating women as equals. It's sending them Valentine cards and boxes of chocs and inviting them out to dinner that is bargaining and treating them as a commodity.

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Yeah- especially if you only consider her 'passable'.

When have you been out with a bloke who didn't pass your passable test?

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bullshit Spendius. She wants whatever you have as much as you want whatever 'passable' stuff she has.
It's a reciprocal agreement of the purest sort.

It is not. You're missing the point. She is being given permission to have whatever she wants. I would be taking the chance that she might not want me to have anything she doesn't approve of me having and committed to providing her with whatever she takes a fancy to. It gets past all the faking. It's a compliment. It's a risky business. You sound as if the bloke's expectations are a consideration. I'm knocking them out for her. Really--she didn't ought to need me to. It might be taken for granted in some circumstances. An experienced intellectual woman would know exactly what I meant. I bet Francis agrees.

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@aidan,

Here's a question for you Becks--

Ms Sarah Pomeroy wrote-

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Plutarch charges Fulvia with initiating the deterioration of Marc Antony and preparing him to be dominated by Cleopatra, for Fulvia wished to rule a ruler and command a commander, and she schooled Antony to obey women.

History turns on such things.

Antony had as many choice women at his disposal as he wanted. The pick of the auctions for a start. Fulvia was Antony's wife and had been previously married to two distinguished Romans.

What do you think she did to effect that disastrous turn in Antony's glorious career and ultimately cause his suicide after Actium. History might well be a lot different had he been satisfied with the beautiful young wenches from all over the empire which blokes like Flaubert's fictional Spendius brought to Rome to be sold.

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@spendius,

I agree with everything you said in your post to Francis except that just as the Marquis de Sade wouldn't have been interested in sleeping with or have used the phrase, 'slept with', I don't think those who'd 'butter buns' should be termed 'lovers'. 'Service providers' would seem a more appropriate title.

Which reminds me of a funny/sad story. When I was teaching in this school in NC, there were six of us who had our desks in an office and we started getting the most sexually explicit and amusing spam over the school e-mail. Before they finally stopped it, we all used to read it and laugh figuring it was coming from some of the university students up the road who had somehow hacked into the system.
Well there was one teacher, Evelyn who relished this spam - it was like her daily dose of vicarious sex or love and she looked forward to it every day, as if it were a love letter addressed specifically to her. And when it was stopped- you could tell it left a hole in her life. She wasn't very attractive, and I would guess had never really received a lot of male attention.
So I was telling my friend Tito that I felt sad for her - you could actually see she was missing this little bit of daily sexual excitement.. He was a fellow teacher, very virile guy- a triathlete and extremely cocksure of himself- although also very funny, sensitive and likeable. He said, 'Hmmm, if I were just a little more desperate , I'd offer to service her myself.'

Reminded me of your use of the word, 'passable.' I guess Evelyn wasn't passable. So what do you think women in that situation do? And I think it's insensitive of you to assume that the women you do not find passable do not notice that you don't address any of your queries about what you can do for them to them. Believe me, they notice. They watch as other women are flirted with and wonder what it would be like to have someone notice them enough to want to flirt with them.

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"Can I take your coat sir?" or " can I get past please?" or " can I squeeze in here?" when they come to the bar on which we lean. It's only the casting of bread on the water. Test their sophistication so to speak.

While they're trying to do their JOB? Jesus Spendius - I'd show you sophistication - I'd put your balls in a vise- that's what you're looking for anyway - isn't it?

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That they don't look like Baroness Trumpington or Margaret Rutherford or the wife in the famous Ocean Finance advert. Do you think I'm choosy? Don't forget that the ones who I wouldn't say it to don't notice my not saying it. Blimey Becks! Are you being obtuse. The ones I fancy of course which is a pretty large group.

Do I think you're choosy - No. Not when in the next breath you say, 'The ones I fancy of course which is a pretty large group.'

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So! What's the alternative? Society is as it is. That lot are trading who are tarting themselves up in the dress shops and beauty salons. And often with their husband's hard earned wages.

Well they have to look 'passable' don't they? And don't tell me any husband wants his wife looking less than passable. It's a direct reflection on him, aside from the fact that most women work Spendius. Maybe it's their own money they're spending.

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Having a bit of fun and treating women as equals. It's sending them Valentine cards and boxes of chocs and inviting them out to dinner that is bargaining and treating them as a commodity.

Not necessarily - it depends on why you're doing it. Maybe you just like her and want to give her something nice- make her smile. Let her know you know her.

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When have you been out with a bloke who didn't pass your passable test?

Never. I'm choosy- I'd never settle for passable. He has to be like so, so, so - interesting. Nice. Smart and funny are good too. It would never have anything at all to do with what he looked like or what he wore. So he wouldn't be able to dress it up or fake anything.

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It is not. You're missing the point. She is being given permission to have whatever she wants. I would be taking the chance that she might not want me to have anything she doesn't approve of me having and committed to providing her with whatever she takes a fancy to. It gets past all the faking. It's a compliment. It's a risky business. You sound as if the bloke's expectations are a consideration. I'm knocking them out for her. Really--she didn't ought to need me to. It might be taken for granted in some circumstances. An experienced intellectual woman would know exactly what I meant. I bet Francis agrees.

An experienced intellectual woman would not want a pussy-whipped milquetoast which is what you're describing.
Where's the challenge in that? It'd be too easy and predictable and quickly become boring.
She'd want an equal - remember just above you talked about treating women as equals? You were on the right track.

As far as Marc Antony goes (or went) passion can make a person weak. in the sense that it erodes resolve. That's the frustrating thing. There's always someone who comes along who makes you break all your rules.
It can be very powerful.
I know I've felt afraid when I've realized I'd turn on a dime and throw everything I know over for something I can't count on but feel I have to have.
You always just have to hope that other person is working in your best interests when you hand over the reins.

Or use your head and stay out of the line of fire.

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@aidan,

Yes. I want an equal. Thats a way of putting it that I've never thought of. Lord knows what else I want. I can't tell if being on here is doing me bad or good anymore.

And spendius, I've always felt guilty, ever since I broke up with my last boyfriend.
http://able2know.org/topic/110242-1

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@aidan,

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She'd want an equal - remember just above you talked about treating women as equals? You were on the right track.

An equal would be lovely.

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@aidan,

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An experienced intellectual woman would not want a pussy-whipped milquetoast which is what you're describing.

Marc Antony a milquetoast!! Are you kidding? He made Rambo look like a ponce in a ******* tutu with his knees knocking.

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for Fulvia wished to rule a ruler and command a commander

With two previous marriages to powerful patricians.

How do you think she did what she did and why does Ms Pomeroy use the "deterioration"?

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Where's the challenge in that? It'd be too easy and predictable and quickly become boring.

Not to an imaginative lady it wouldn't.

Tito said-

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He said, 'Hmmm, if I were just a little more desperate , I'd offer to service her myself.

That's an asshole. No wonder you don't understand this stuff if you think a bloke who said a thing like that is "very funny, sensitive and likeable".

I wouldn't know whether Evelyn was passable or not. Our standards are affected by various factors. Number of pints. What's available. How long since we vented. How big the competition is. How accomodating she looks. The time. How far it is to the nearest alternative. Like Jack Nicholson did in that scene in Reds with the poetess or that famous scene in Amarcord Nando Orfei did at the open-air dance.

What a movie Amarcord is. I must have seen it twenty times.

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While they're trying to do their JOB? Jesus Spendius - I'd show you sophistication - I'd put your balls in a vise- that's what you're looking for anyway - isn't it?

I didn't hint, intimate or even tangentially allude to any such thing. You sound interested though. Mentioning like that. I bet you gleefully grinned typing it. Count me out. Do it to Tito. He needs lessons.

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And I think it's insensitive of you to assume that the women you do not find passable do not notice that you don't address any of your queries about what you can do for them to them. Believe me, they notice. They watch as other women are flirted with and wonder what it would be like to have someone notice them enough to want to flirt with them.

Yes--it is sad I know. Bob did do a song called "I'm in Love with the Ugliest Girl in the World" though. And I'm a Bobcat. I tend to think of "unfortunate dispositions" more that looks actually. Like iron vests and armour plated hang-ups.

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Maybe it's their own money they're spending.

I know. But it's like the feeding of the five thousand. It covers more than it starts out with if you talk about each expenditure separately and forget to add them all up.

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Maybe you just like her and want to give her something nice- make her smile. Let her know you know her.

Oh-- you are sweet Becksie.

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It would never have anything at all to do with what he looked like or what he wore.

Come off it. What's The Hunchback of Notre Dame about?

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Or use your head and stay out of the line of fire.

It does look a bit that way at times I must admit.

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@The Pentacle Queen,

Don't despair PQ - they're out there. You say you're twenty? I know this lovely guy- exactly twenty as a matter of fact - goes to University in Bristol - handsome, BRIGHT, friendly- works with learning disabled kids to make money for school.
And he's unattached. I've never asked him why, but I bet he's the sort of guy who's waiting for the right girl to come along instead of bagging whatever passable morsel passes through his line of vision.
His name is Alex.
That's why I like my job - I meet the nicest people-old and young. And I'm always so impressed by how together most of these young people are when I talk to them (men and women). From the media, you'd think they're all just a bunch of yobs and tarts. Not in my experience.

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@spendius,

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An experienced intellectual woman would not want a pussy-whipped milquetoast which is what you're describing.

Marc Antony a milquetoast!! Are you kidding? He made Rambo look like a ponce in a ******* tutu with his knees knocking.

Who was brought to his knees by a woman. Because he felt so passionately about her that he had to have her no matter what it cost him.

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for Fulvia wished to rule a ruler and command a commander

With two previous marriages to powerful patricians.

How do you think she did what she did and why does Ms Pomeroy use the "deterioration"?

Oh yeah, make no mistake, there are women who understand the power they possess and use it for negative gain. It's an ego thing.
You know, men do the same thing. When I worked in the prison, we had to go through key training to learn how and when to use the keys but also had to sit through this presentation with a psychologist. And he was very direct. He spoke to all the women and said, 'These guys will do or say anything to try to manipulate you. And you'd think they'd go after the good looking women - NO! They target and work on the less attractive women, because they KNOW that those women are more vulnerable and more likely to fall for their manipulations.'
So men do it too.

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Where's the challenge in that? It'd be too easy and predictable and quickly become boring.

Not to an imaginative lady it wouldn't.

Imaginative with what - a whip?

Tito said-

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He said, 'Hmmm, if I were just a little more desperate , I'd offer to service her myself.

That's an asshole. No wonder you don't understand this stuff if you think a bloke who said a thing like that is "very funny, sensitive and likeable".

You're right. Most people didn't like him. I didn't like him at first. But then we worked together everyday and I saw the guy behind the facade and he was hysterical. He was dead serious when he said that - he really wrestled with himself to figure out if he could perform that favor for her. He saw it as his calling as a man.
I saw him this summer before I left as he was leaving the US to teach in Ecuador. He had a girlfriend and he was telling me that she was really hurt that he was leaving and asked him, 'Did you even think of me before you made this decision?'
He said, 'I told her, No, I didn't. Why would I have thought of her? This is something I wanted to do.'
I just laughed. You gotta love someone who can be so honest. I'd never have sex with him though (although everyone thought we were).
He didn't have a clue - but yes-his company was very entertaining. We got along like a house on fire.

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I wouldn't know whether Evelyn was passable or not. Our standards are affected by various factors. Number of pints. What's available. How long since we vented. How big the competition is. How accomodating she looks. The time. How far it is to the nearest alternative.

They probably know that. That's why they have no compunction about using you and returning the favor.

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While they're trying to do their JOB? Jesus Spendius - I'd show you sophistication - I'd put your balls in a vise- that's what you're looking for anyway - isn't it?

I didn't hint, intimate or even tangentially allude to any such thing.

You said something about hanging up your coat - I figured one of them was the coat check girl.

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You sound interested though. Mentioning like that. I bet you gleefully grinned typing it. Count me out. Do it to Tito. He needs lessons.

I was speaking figuratively. I'd have said, (if you'd said to me) I'll do anything you want- 'Oh yeah, okay, let me think about this and I'll ge't back to you.' You know - put you on the spot like the girl who said, 'ANYTHEEEEENG?'.

Tito does need lessons - but I aint the kind of friend who gives those sort of lessons. I just observe and laugh.

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And I think it's insensitive of you to assume that the women you do not find passable do not notice that you don't address any of your queries about what you can do for them to them. Believe me, they notice. They watch as other women are flirted with and wonder what it would be like to have someone notice them enough to want to flirt with them.

Yes--it is sad I know. Bob did do a song called "I'm in Love with the Ugliest Girl in the World" though. And I'm a Bobcat. I tend to think of "unfortunate dispositions" more that looks actually. Like iron vests and armour plated hang-ups.

That's nice to know- I'll have to give you a little more credit.

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Maybe it's their own money they're spending.

I know. But it's like the feeding of the five thousand. It covers more than it starts out with if you talk about each expenditure separately and forget to add them all up.

That's true. I'm always aghast when I hear what women are willing to spend on having their nails done and all the rest.
I'd rather buy a plant or some cd's.

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Maybe you just like her and want to give her something nice- make her smile. Let her know you know her.

Oh-- you are sweet Becksie.

Yes, I can be.

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It would never have anything at all to do with what he looked like or what he wore.

Come off it. What's The Hunchback of Notre Dame about?

Yeah, think about it - what's it about?
That was disingenuous of me though. It would be somewhat about looks. When Tito would wear shorts- I would be tempted. Also when I looked at his hands. But then he'd open his mouth and talk about his latest conquest and that would be that.

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Or use your head and stay out of the line of fire.

It does look a bit that way at times I must admit.

Yeah - safe - but boring. Too bad it seems so difficult to find a middle ground.

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How many people is it acceptable to have.....

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