23
   

How many people is it acceptable to have.....

 
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:22 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I don't think she had much to gain from the event and a great deal to lose. It was a poor deal from her point of view and an excellent deal from the cad's point of view.


Yeah, I'd agree with the first bit, but I think we actually both got the same deal. I was pretty happy with the whole thing.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:24 pm
@vikorr,
I'm not giving any advice vik. I'm exploring the issues raised. And hoping to create an entertaining thread. And a challenging one.

I don't see a difference between judgment and advice. If I advised somebody never to try heroin it would only be because of a judgment I had made about it. If I had made no judgment I would shrug.

I don't justify all my actions to myself. I have done a number of things which I regret doing.

I have no concern about any dangers you present to me. You have given me no reason to.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:26 pm
@The Pentacle Queen,
Quote:
Yeah, I'd agree with the first bit, but I think we actually both got the same deal. I was pretty happy with the whole thing.


That's using hindsight. You got away with it. Fair enough.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:57 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Like what?

I could cut & paste quite a bit for you if you like. Due to the mental work involved (commenting to explain), and the human ability to see what they want to see, and justify what they want to justify...admittedly I don’t feel like doing so, and may not " depends if it amuses me enough or not.
Quote:
What sort of conversation.

Any sort.
Quote:
Judge what I say and you judge me

There is a difference between individual behaviour, and judging the whole person. Judging behaviour is judging the person in that one single aspect of their life...but is not judging the whole person (which is what most people take offense to " probably because you can easily improve one aspect of your life, but improving your whole life is hugely difficult, and a giant reflection of who you are)

You can say lots of things about lots of subjects, with lots of differing attitudes, and lots of differing emotions...in other words, commenting on/judging something you say cannot possibly say that you are that way with all things.
Btw, you should know that there is a difference between commenting on someone’s usual behaviour, and commenting on someone’s sexual behaviour...there is only one sexual side to a person " sex is integral to each person " and so those comments become a comment on the person. Saying ‘that was a slutty thing to do’ will be interpreted as ‘you are a slut’.

Quote:
My intention is simply to offer Queenie other ways of looking at things. To make her think. She does with that what she sees fit. I would say the same things to a girl in the pub in a similar discussion.

You missed the rest of it spendius...judgement is not just in the intention, but in the wording and in the reason for it being said. If your reason for speaking is one of fear, and your wording reflects that, but your intention is ‘to offer different ways of looking at things’ you are likely to still come out very judgemental. (that of course, is just one example).
Quote:
I think it's obvious what that means. It means I am prepared to say what is folly and back it up.

Yes...so the wording of your original quote was wrong, and what I believed you were trying to say was correct.
Quote:
Help yourself. Attack. Be rude. Label. Put me down. I can take it.

Such ‘attacks’ are only ever done out of fear. Perhaps you don’t understand...for the same reason I accept PQ for who she is (I don’t fear her morals, lack of morals, or however you want to put it)...I accept that you are who you are, and I also don’t feel the need to accept behaviour that attacks people . So in your case, I don’t need to accept your behaviour that attacks PQ’s sexual behaviour.

Yet nor am I threatened by it. So I don’t have any need to ‘attack’ you with labels, put downs, swearing, or such.

Quote:
I have no interest apart from trying to persuade Queenie to think before she does anything like that again.

This is what I was talking about when I said “people don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care”. And when a person has no interest in the other person, and passes comment on the other, it invariably comes out as an attack “the greater the force you attack with, the greater the force you are resisted with”. It’s a pointless way to approach something, and only serves ones self interest.

Quote:
Do you approve of what she did? Would you advise her to do it again?

I personally don’t think it was the best way to handle things (I’ve said that before in this thread), but that's just from my perspective. That said, I could make many other statements and explanations in relation to this one topic, that would be summarised in “it doesn’t matter if I approve or not”

As for whether or not I would advise her to do it again. I doubt she'd 'do it again', though she may be in the middle of 'continuing to do it', I don't know. Personally, if I were a close friend, and she wanted my advice...I may or may not offer advice (depends on circumstances, and I really don't know enough about PQ's circumstances to say yes I would, or not I wouldn't), but I would ask questions to help her learn and grow from her experiences.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 04:14 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I'm not giving any advice vik.

Here's stuff just from the last 2 pages, said by you :
-I'm sorry vik. You seem to want to bring an end to conversation. No labels. No advice.
-Anybody who offers advice, particularly that you don't like
-It was folly what Queenie did.
-We were all invited to be a judge when Queenie put the post up
-My advice, such as it is,
-My intention is simply to offer Queenie other ways of looking at things. To make her think.
-I have no interest apart from trying to persuade Queenie to think before she does anything like that again
Dig back further, and I'm sure you'll find lots more.

Quote:
I don't see a difference between judgment and advice.
You'd be one of the few on earth who doesn't (ones at attack, the other isn't - but I dare say you actually do know that)

Quote:
I don't justify all my actions to myself. I have done a number of things which I regret doing.

Never said you did. I would have said something like “people have a tendency to justify their actions/stance/beliefs to themselves.” (too lazy to look it up)
Quote:
I have no concern about any dangers you present to me. You have given me no reason to.

What you wrote earlier was :
- I think you are spouting rubbish and dangerous rubbish

If you are going to say things, at least be consistent.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 04:29 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
I could cut & paste quite a bit for you if you like. Due to the mental work involved (commenting to explain), and the human ability to see what they want to see, and justify what they want to justify...admittedly I don’t feel like doing so, and may not " depends if it amuses me enough or not.


That's neat I must say. I hope you don't think it a satisfactory answer to the question I asked. I'll judge a good chunk of you on that example of slippery tactics.

Quote:
Any sort.


And another good chunk on that one too.

Quote:
There is a difference between individual behaviour, and judging the whole person. Judging behaviour is judging the person in that one single aspect of their life...but is not judging the whole person (which is what most people take offense to " probably because you can easily improve one aspect of your life, but improving your whole life is hugely difficult, and a giant reflection of who you are)


I wouldn't judge anybody because of how they peeled an apple but if I saw them drop a golf ball and claim it was the one that was lost I would judge the whole person from that.

I'm not commenting on the sexual side of a person.

Quote:
You missed the rest of it spendius...judgement is not just in the intention, but in the wording and in the reason for it being said. If your reason for speaking is one of fear, and your wording reflects that, but your intention is ‘to offer different ways of looking at things’ you are likely to still come out very judgemental. (that of course, is just one example).


I missed nothing. What's all this fear stuff. I have no sense of fear. That's about the third time you have mentioned fear.

I can't make head or tail of the rest vik. Of course it matters whether you approve or not. Your input is pointless otherwise. All this one the one hand and on the other hand is hopeless. It's like walking in a blizzard.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 05:18 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
That's neat I must say. I hope you don't think it a satisfactory answer to the question I asked. I'll judge a good chunk of you on that example of slippery tactics.

You can judge away however you like. I’ll keep calling you on it for as long as I’m interested in doing so.
It was an out " very straightfoward, which is hardly slippery, but see it as you wish.
Quote:
And another good chunk on that one too.
That one wasn’t ‘slippery’. It’s completely straightfoward " the is no conversation, of any sort, where moral labels need to be attached " ever.

Quote:
I'm not commenting on the sexual side of a person.

Spendius, you really need to be consistent. What is your whole purpose if not to comment on the sexual side of a person posting a thread regarding their sexual side?

Some of the things you said, before I bored of skimming multipages :
-I heard the expression "village bike" a long time ago and it was used by women.
-That's disgraceful Queenie.
-We are talking about you giving yourself to a complete stanger from another country at such short notice that he couldn't even class as an acqaintance.
-I think that is degrading--yes. And I think the vast majority of the population would agree with me. You readily admit the ferocity of your parent's response.
We are talking about you giving yourself to a complete stanger from another country at such short notice that he couldn't even class as an acqaintance.

Admittedly some are debatable in their specific purpose, if not their general purpose.

Quote:
I missed nothing. What's all this fear stuff. I have no sense of fear. That's about the third time you have mentioned fear.


Without nerves, can you (which is usually reflected by 'do you') : sing in public, public speak, dance when you feel like it, act, approach the most beautiful girl (that you don't know) in a bar while she's surrounded by friends, attempt difficult tasks while other watch, speak your mind to your boss, speak your mind in any circumstance, tell your wife/girlfriend what you really think...etc, etc, etc?
Do you seek to impress or please women (or anyone, bosses etc)? Do you get angry when people disagree with you? Do you resort to swearing, labeling, aggression etc to get your way? All these things, at their heart, are fear based. I'm sure there's more activities that are fear based. Basically, if you worry in any way about what other people think, it is due to fear (from miniscule up to great fear). Fear of rejection, fear of looking the fool, fear of conflict, fear or feeling inadequate, fear of failing, fear of...etc

Quote:
I can't make head or tail of the rest vik. Of course it matters whether you approve or not. Your input is pointless otherwise.
We disagree. I can have my own opinion/morals/beliefs etc without having to apply it to another person. I can recognise that they are unique individuals, with a unique total of life experiences, beliefs that were formed in circumstance different to mine...and in fact are likely to have just as many differences in their life, as we have similarities. Why then should my beliefs fit their life?

Quote:
All this one the one hand and on the other hand is hopeless. It's like walking in a blizzard.

When there's no consistency, it certainly is.


Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 06:24 pm
Vikorr - If Spendi wants to judge PQ for her sexual habit, let him. He is part of the population that chooses to judge her for her sexual choices, just like there is a part of the population that judges Spendi for his pub habit.

Spendi probably doesn't care about them though...

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 06:27 pm
@vikorr,
I don't want you to think I am ignoring you vik but I can assure you that I have read your post carefully, twice, and am at a loss for words.

For example-

Quote:
What is your whole purpose if not to comment on the sexual side of a person posting a thread regarding their sexual side?


The sexual side is primarily concerned with mental states. In nature it is different I think. Nature has the "rut". Once a year in large animals such as ourselves. Are you asking me to speculate on Queenie's thoughts during the act which is exercising our energies? I could make an attempt at the cad's mental states but I draw the line at trying it with Queenie.

I have heard women say that "I wish he would hurry up" is their primary concern and even that " if the wardrobe was in the corner there would be room for a nice dressing table by the window" .

So I don't really know what you mean by their sexual side. In the movie Valmont Ms Bening was reading a book.

Eating a crispy apple is Olde English. Out of date.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 06:36 pm
And absolutely mind blowing.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 06:49 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
The sexual side is primarily concerned with mental states
Wasn't it you who, a number of pages back, said "It all comes down to exchange of bodily fluids, and sweaty grunting"?

I would think the sexual side would be anything to do with sex, and the reason for pariticapating in it or seeking it.

Don't worry too much about my perceptions. If you are at a loss for words regarding my post, that's fine.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 06:53 pm
@vikorr,
Well vik--I did ask what "sex" is. Queenie said it was the "usual thing" or something equally desultory.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 06:53 pm
the tags for this topic mention judging and casual sex, if we're going to be judging this casual sex we're going to need some pictures or videos

i'll get my score cards ready and will be awaiting further posts of said images
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 07:03 pm
@spendius,
I recall you asking that Spendius ("What is sex"), though I don't see how that is tied to the context in which you made the statement (which statement was made in reply to me).

Btw, Diest, While Spendius disagreed with a lot of assertions made (which is fine), he was actually interested in what I (read 'others') had to say, which is a good thing. And despite me targetting specific aspects of what he was saying, there were other things I much agreed with.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 01:28 am
@spendius,
Sorry Spendi, I should have been more specific. The comment you made that riled me holds its meaning in any context:
spendi wrote:
Which is tantamount to saying that a "new woman" has come into the world. And with her a "new man". And what a sorry mess he is. He actually accompanies his wife shopping. Holds her hand too. I bet she wishes he would vanish. Some of them seem scared of letting her out of his sight. It must be very trying when all the propaganda is telling her how wonderful it is. She'll have to pass by the cream-cake cafe.


Quote:
I think feminism is rendering women uninteresting. And un-natural.

This is entirely your problem, not theirs, and emphasises my point about your conditioning (social or self-directed). I think you over state the case I think many feminists would argue that they are in the minority.

Truly I am sick of the whole 'we are fundamentally different because of our gender' crap. Gender is not, as Queenie has intimated, binary.

But you raise a fair point, I have not followed the whole thread, and should not butt in (grabs hat, makes for the exit).
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 02:15 am
@hingehead,
Quote:
Truly I am sick of the whole 'we are fundamentally different because of our gender' crap.

You are ? I find the fact that we are fundamentally different as men and women one of life's most interesting gifts.
Quote:
Gender is not, as Queenie has intimated, binary.

Yes it is - there are two .

None of my business really, except that I hope PQ didn't take anything Spendius said personally. My read of this thread, and I did read it in its entirety, carefully, is that Spendius felt that as he is clearly as fond of PQ as she seems to be of him (looking at him as somewhat of a mentor and thought stimulator) that he offer her food for thought on her actions and perspective- and the truth about his own - which may give her an idea about the male thought process in the whole thing.

I don't think he was unduly harsh- as he said- he was doing the parent stand in. He didn't say anything to her that my father wouldn't have said to me (if he'd heard about such an event in my life) and I know for sure my father loves me and wouldn't condemn me.

The reason you shouldn't take anything personally PQ is that he has issues with female behavior universally and across thousands of years.
Your situation was the jumping off point for him to voice those.
I believe he retains his fondness and respect for you.
Parents have to make judgments and make those judgments clear to their children. It's their job.
If you'd been my daughter, I'd have said a lot of the same things Spendius said - probably in more emotional and even clearer language -again -not because I judged and despised you, but in an effort to keep you safe and whole.

There's a fundamental gender difference right there - your guys major focus is on her sexuality and ability to freely express it without being judged (one a public forum).
My focus continually comes back to her physical safety first- even though I know that's not what's on topic - that's what jumps out at me continually and most importantly - as a female.
I'd also like to see her respect her privacy.
No judgment - that's her choice- that's just another one of my 'gender specific female thoughts'.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 02:23 am
@aidan,
Quote:
The reason you shouldn't take anything personally PQ is that...


If I may - seeking to not take anything personally is a very good, and very difficult thing (it requires total self respect, and total respect for others...the respectful right to differ...which I'm not sure anyone ever fully reaches)
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 02:34 am
@vikorr,
No, but they can be encouraged to see why they shouldn't and learn how not to
(take things unduly personally).
I'm getting better and better at it myself - only because I've had people reinterpret for me what I may have misinterpreted - Spendius being one of those people on this very forum, as a matter of fact.

If she can learn from something someone says without letting it impact who she believes herself to be negatively - that can only be a good thing.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 02:45 am
@aidan,
Quote:
If she can learn from something someone says without letting it impact who she believes herself to be negatively - that can only be a good thing.

Agreed
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 04:52 am
@aidan,
Quote:
You are ? I find the fact that we are fundamentally different as men and women one of life's most interesting gifts.


Actually the fact that individuals are different is one life's most interesting gifts. If you want your differences to be based on what hangs (or doesn't) between your legs, and if you want your possibilities in life to based on same, well, I prefer my world.

Quote:
Quote:
Gender is not, as Queenie has intimated, binary.

Yes it is - there are two .


And there are two hands, left and right, but almost every one has a mixture of both. Some are extremely right handed, others extremely left, but most are between those too poles. Gender is the same, but our society is particularly harsh on those who don't identify with one of the polar extremes, and on those who do but don't have the dangly bits to match it.

You tell me what the singular characteristics of the TWO genders are and I will show someone with the wrong dangly bits displaying that characteristic.
 

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