Oneness vs. Trinity

I don’t believe it is an oversight Leadfoot….if we need to keep the rules perfectly and we can’t, it begs the question why were the rules given in the first place if only to prove to us that we can’t keep them perfectly, it being impossible.

I would suggest that only God himself can keep them perfectly…………and yet we still need to have kept the rules perfectly in order to enter into Gods presence because he can’t look upon sin.

I would suggest that the Christian scriptures are implying that we need to allow God to keep them perfectly for us and we need to trust that he has done it on our behalf……….I would suggest that this is what Jesus meant in John 14:6.You may disagree.I can’t understand it any other way.

I therefore still don’t understand where you are going with the 1000 years …..please explain…….how would that change what I have suggested?

[quote]I would suggest that this is what Jesus meant in John 14:6.You may disagree.[/quote]

I for one disagree. Because they were not the words of the man Jesus, but the words of our Lord who filled his servant with his spirit on the day Jesus was baptised, and from that day forward commanded Him that which he was to say to the people.

Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to say. Jesus was the earthly temple of our Lord God and saviour (The SON OF MAN) who is the only begotten Son and heir to the throne of the Most High in the creation, and it was He who said through the mouth of His servant; “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by “Who I Am,” who raised the body of Jesus, the earthly temple, which had been filled with his spirit.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord God our saviour) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

Before he can rule the world for a thousand years, he must first subdue the world. Those who are looking forward to his coming have no idea the tribulation that is soon to occur in the war that will end all wars.

The work that must be done for the salvation of this world cannot be threatened by unrest and conflicts.

You disappoint me Jasper. Why are you avoiding the question? I did not ask about keeping the law perfectly, although it is related to the thousand years.
If you don’t know, just say so. Or Do you not believe that thousand year reign of Christ is in the Bible?

Enough of your dodging, I tire of your empty repetition of dogma.
The thousand years is necessary BECAUSE you can’t keep God's law, even the two commandments that Christ said fulfilled all the law. I leave you to find the details of why for yourself. Or not.

I thought I made it clear that I would look into the 1000 years mentioned in the bible Leadfoot.The 1000 years are mentioned.

I’m asking you to explain …in what way are the 1000 years necessary because we can’t keep Gods laws.You make statements but don’t explain them.

…….how is 1000 yeas going to make any difference to us not keeping the rules perfectly?

What a sad reflection, in that you can't love God with all your body, all your mind and your soul and love your neighbour as you love yourself.

If you refuse to do unto others that which you want them to do to yourself, and instead, do to others that which you 'DONT' want them to do to you, then not to many people would want you to live in their society.

Who wants someone, who can't obey the simple law of God, as a neighbour?

No I don’t mean that we shouldn’t try to keep them as best we can at all time …my point is that we haven’t kept them perfectly and can’t keep them perfectly and therefore my understanding of the bible is that we cannot therefore enter into Gods presence because he cannot look on sin…..My interpretation of the bible is that only God himself can keep the rules perfectly.

Then your understanding and your interpretation of the scriptures is wrong.

God knows that none are perfect and all have sinned, and for that, all must die once and pay the blood price for those mistakes, then go off into judgement.

Eternal death is the punishment for unrepentant sin.

Ezekiel 18: 21-24; “If an evil person stops sinning and keeps my laws, if he does what is right and good, he will not die; he will certainly live. All his sins will be forgiven, and he will live, because he did what is right. Do you think I enjoy seeing an evil person die?” asks the Sovereign LORD. “No, I would rather see him repent and live.

“But if a righteous person stops doing good and starts doing all the evil, disgusting things that evil people do, will he go on living? No! None of the good he did will be remembered. He will die because of his unfaithfulness and his sins.

Thank you for a proper Socratic reply.

There is no specific scripture spelling out the purpose of the thousand years but if we look at the whole story told in the Bible it isn’t impossible to figure it out for ourselves. Like much else there, I think God wants us to do that as much as possible. I respect that about Him, and that is a sign of his respect for us. He doesn’t spoon feed everything to us as adults. The scriptures do say 'Come, let us reason together.'

Think about these other things said there.

Eve being deceived.
Man learning about good and evil.
Man's failures when dealing directly with God.
Man Asking God to make it simple with a checklist of easy to understand rules rather than walking with God.
Man failing miserably with what we asked for (the law).
God sending his Son to bring us back to what God willed, including the gentiles.
The absolutely vital words Christ spoke to us, like no other man who ever lived.
The assurance that we would be saved IF we followed his example.
That most would still fail, even after he came.

Things Christ said:
No one would enter the kingdom of God unless we are born again.
(Let me know what that means to you)
'Be ye perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect.'
Our resurrection at his return if we sincerely follow him.

But we know that most believers are far from perfect nonetheless. They fail due to weakness, temptation, the influence of 'powers and principalities' in this world.

From what you have said I think you generally agree with what I’ve said here, I’m not ‘preaching' to you. And as you have said, this level of imperfection cannot enter into God's presence.

So let’s look at what the Bible says about that 1000 years after his return.

All the past sincere believers will be raised (the 'dead in Christ') to be with those believers still alive.
All the hindering influences of this current world to be gone, including non-believers.
Satan himself to be locked away for that 1000 years before being released again.
Christ himself to be with us, face to face, to rule and teach for the duration.

Following the 1000 years Satan and his angels are released and will deceive many who will join him in his rebellion, and are utterly defeated.

And remember, all this happens on earth, before the non believers are resurrected on the day of judgement.

I told you I thought it was a serious oversight to not contemplate what the purpose of that 1000 years was. In light of all this I can’t imagine it had anything less than profound significance.

In simple language, I think it is the believer's last chance to be 'born again' and enter the Kingdom of God. Not all will succeed, even given a thousand years with Christ.
You see, I never questioned your assertion that imperfection could not enter that kingdom. That was not the point, even though it be true.

I disagree “The Anointed”…the bible states that God cannot look upon sin because he is that holy….whether you agree or disagree…the bible says this.

…..so if you are a sinner because you haven’t kept God’s laws perfectly I still don’t understand why you think that you can enter his presence ….please explain…..

My understanding is that if you have not kept God’s laws perfectly then you cannot enter God’s presence ….My understanding of the scriptures is that 1 year 2 years 1000 years eternity…. whatever….this is still the case.

As I have said already it is my understanding that only God himself can keep the rules perfectly and so if we continue to trust in ourselves, thinking that we can contribute anything at all to keeping the rules perfectly or contributing anything to being able to enter God’s presence then my understanding is that we are mistaken.

I am as clear as I can be on that point…..

I’m just trying to figure the next bit out.

You mention “born again”…….which is an interesting concept…

I’d be proud if it were mine, but it isn’t. But there is no mistaking it when it happens.

The Bible also says that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they be born again. So, would it matter if you had kept the law perfectly and yet had not been born again?

How many self delusional so-called, Christians claim that they have been born again.

The Bible also says that Abraham was 135, when he left Haran to travel into the land of Canaan, but I don't believe that. Also that Abraham brought a burial site for his wife Sarah, from Hamor the chief of Shechem, I don't believe that either. Also that Jacobs body was buried in Shechem, I don't believe that either.

I agree that the prophet Habakkuk said in prayer to God; "Your eyes are too holy to look at evil," Just as a man might say to his wife as he takes the shovel from her saying, "Your hands are too delicate to do that."

Habakkuk was not saying that God could not look on evil, in fact he's having a bit of a whinge about God silently sitting there watching while evil men are destroying people who are more righteous than they, the Babylonians are.

Do you bother to read the entire section, or do you just look for selective words?

Just because someone says something in the bible, that does not mean that the person in question is speaking the truth, even someone like Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit and yet could not tell the truth.

Stephen, a Greek speaking Jew, of who it is said, was filled with the Holy Spirit, who had been dragged before the Jewish authorities by Saul, in defence of his faith before being stoned to death, stated in acts 7: 4, that it was after Terah HAD DIED that his son Abraham obeyed God’s command and went to live in the land of Canaan.

But the record in Genesis makes it plain that after Terah had turned 70, he became the father of Abraham, Nahor, and Haran, and that Abraham was 75 when he travelled to Canaan, leaving his father in Haran with his younger brother “Nahor,” and that his father died in Haran 60 years later at the age of 205. Stephens word’s here are seen to be untrue.

Stephen, who was filled with the Holy Spirit, also states in Acts 7: 15-17, that Abraham bought the grave site for Sarah in the land of Shechem from Hamor, whereas Genesis 23: reveals that Abraham bought the grave site from Ephron the Hittite at Machpeleh east of Mamre, which is way to the south of Shechem. Again, Stephen’s words are untrue.

It is also said by Stephen in the same verses, that Jacob and his sons were buried at Shechem, when in fact, it was only the remains of Joseph which was buried there, see Joshua 24: 32. Again Stephen’s words are untrue.

Jacob and his other sons were buried at Mamre and concerning the burial of Jacob, it is written in Genesis 50: 13, “They carried the body of Jacob to Canaan and buried it in the cave at Machpelah east of Mamre in the field, which Abraham had bought from Ephron the Hittite.” Again, Stephen’s words are untrue.

Acts 7: 14; Stephen gives the number of Jacob’s family who went into Egypt as being 75 in all, which again contradicts the Hebrew scriptures that state, in Genesis 46: 26-27; the number of Jacob’s direct descendants who actually travelled to Egypt was 66, plus Jacob himself, and his son Joseph and Joseph’s two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who were already in Egypt, making the number of Jacobs immediate family in Egypt, 70.

Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit, he was a wonderful asset to his community, helping the poor and needy, even working miracles, but he did not have the gift of knowing the truths as revealed in the Holy Scriptures, and the words he spoke in his defence, were definitely not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

So you can ignore what Stephen and Habakkuk have said in the bible.

Ok,so you need to be born again according to the Christian scriptures.

I suppose that if you had kept the law perfectly then you would be like Adam before he ate the fruit he was forbidden to eat.

I don’t know how many delusional Christians there are who think they are born again but aren’t.

I can’t comment on your belief systems….that is personal to you.

I would suggest that a part of being “born again” of the spirit is a belief or realisation that you are separate from your body and soul.

I would suggest that You have very low expectations of being Born Again.

I did say a part of……..what are the high expectations then?

It’s just that I made that discovery at age seven, long, long before I was born again.

Could they happen simultaneously? Maybe, but hard for me to imagine.

But then again, I had no idea of how unique each person's life actually was, before that.
It’s impossible to tell from outside.
I can’t wait to start hearing them all.

At the age of 7?……ok……many theologians are unable to distinguish soul from spirit and die with the belief that they are the same.They are not of course.The “i am” is separate from the soul, I am as clear as I can be on that point.

I would suggest that a another fundamental part of the process of being “born again” accordingly to the Christian bible anyway, is the absolute realisation that you can do nothing to be saved as the bible calls it i.e. to be able to become perfect as if by magic and then be able to enter into God’s presence. Many people believe that they can contribute in some way.

From my understanding of the Christian scriptures God has to do it all because only perfection can do it all……imperfection can’t, no matter how much it tries…..hence why I suggest that timescales (1;2;1000;eternity years) are irrelevant to this process for imperfection.

My understanding of the Christian scriptures is that the only reason God gave his rules was to spell out the exacting standards that he required for perfection, obviously knowing that these exacting standards could never be met by anyone other than him.

You may disagree.