Oneness vs. Trinity

What does the word archangel mean if not 'chief angel'? How many chief angels could there be?

Are angels sinless? Well, not all.

The ones who sinned are called demons.

Neo,

Angels are CREATED beings. Jesus was NOT created, He was begotten.

He is the Son of God. His Father does not call the angels Sons of God. He does not grant to the angels the inheritance, etc. God does not give angels the authority of God Himself as He did to Jesus.

I don't.

What the heck does that mean?

What's a godhead?

Manifestations of what?

I must admit, the whole thing makes no sense to me at all. So I'll just watch while you all discuss it.

Begotten.

I rest my case.

Of course it doesn't make sense.

Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up.

Clear to you and me.

I don't know how the whole trinity doctrine got started, but Jesus certainly does not present himself as God in the gospels.

How can Jesus be considered "sinless" when the Bible shows that he disobeyed several of God's commandments? Even if he was really God in disguise, shouldn't he have to follow the rules while in human form?

Terry,

Didn't you and I have a conversation about this a couple of years back? A rather lengthy conversation if I remember correctly.

Would you mind telling us which of God's commands he disobeyed?

I too would be interested in the answer to this one.

Jesus said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:17-20)

Jesus did not practice what he preached:

“Thou shalt have no gods before me.” Jesus put himself before God when he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me" (John 14:6).

“Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.” Jesus and his disciples plucked and ate corn on the Sabbath. The penalty for violating the Sabbath was death (Exodus 31:12-17, Numbers 15:32-36), but Jesus claimed that "The sabbath was made for men and not men for the sabbath." (Mark 2:23-28) They also ate with unwashed hands. (Mark 7:1-4)

“Honor your father and mother.” Jesus scorned and publicly humiliated his mother (Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:19-21, Luke 11:27-28, John 2:3-4) Jesus said, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26) The Bible does not report a single instance where Jesus did or said anything to honor either his human father or his mother. Understandable if he really was the son of a prostitute and a Roman soldier, as rumor had it.

“Thou shalt not bear false witness.” Jesus said he wasn't going to a feast and then as soon as the others left, he went to the feast in secret. (John 7:8-10) Jesus promised to return within the lifetime of his disciples but never did, “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.” (Mark 9:1)

“Thou shalt not kill.” Jesus told a parable about a man who had a fig tree in his vineyard, did not find any fruit on it and wanted it cut down, but the vineyard man said to fertilize it and give it another year. (Luke 13:6-9) Jesus, however, got angry when he wanted figs from a tree that had no fruit because it was out of season. He cursed it and it died. (Mark 11:12-20)

Jesus taught others that it was OK to break the Commandments:

“Thou shalt not commit adultery.” God ordered that anyone guilty of adultery be put to death (Leviticus 20), but when a woman caught in adultery was brought to Jesus, he enabled her to escape lawful punishment (John 8:3-11).

“Thou shalt not steal.” Jesus taught a parable about a man who found a treasure in someone else's field and rather than tell the owner about it, he hid it and bought the field (Matt. 13:44). Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus' feet and wiped his feet with her hair. But one of his disciples objected, "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." "Leave her alone … You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me." (John 3-5)

“Thou shalt not covet.” Jesus taught a parable about a merchant who saw a pearl and coveted it so much that he sold all he had and bought it (Matt. 13:45-46)

Not a violation of the Commandments, but some insight into Jesus’ reputation among the Jews: The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, `here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.”’ (Luke 7:34)

It is odd that Christians fail to see the contradiction of Paul simply abolishing the Law, apparently to gain converts among Gentiles who objected to circumcision and the dietary restrictions. Paul claimed that: “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.” (Galatians 3:25) “For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.” (Ephesians 2:15). In the OT God commanded that anyone who tried to turn the people from his Law was to be put to death.

Yes, we did have this conversation before, and I have posted this list several times. So why are you all still claiming that Jesus was "sinless"? What is YOUR definition of sin, if it does not include violating God's fundamental orders?

You MAY have a small amount of fact on your side if you consider Jesus to be a prophet. You have not, however, proven this to be the case.

If you consider Him to be part of the trinity, your "list" is a meaningless attempt at trying to prove that you are right.

In any case, you have not shown any commandments to have actually been broken.

Most of the Gospel According to John, as well as excerpts from other scripture, makes the case for the Doctrine of the Trinity that was developed by theologians in the Second Century. That Doctrine was not created out of thin air but came from understanding of who Jesus of Nazareth actually was and the supernatural aspect of his being.

That Doctrine was never conclusively decided and debates over it tore the Church apart for centuries and, to some degree, continues to be a point of contention.

I believe most Christians, including myself, however discern the truth as being something like this:

1. God the Father is the Creator. All that has ever been, is, or will be came forth from Him.

2. In order for humankind to be able to love and experience joy, however, it was necessary for God to give humankind free will. That free will enables us to feel and experience all the glory and wonders that God has to offer, but it also enables us to do harm to ourselves and/or others. (My defintion of sin.) Because there are always consequences for sin, a Redeemer was necessary.

3. To show humankind their error in attempting to achieve redemption through keeping rules and regulations, something impossible to do for those with free will, God became flesh and lived among us, fully human with ability to feel and laugh and hurt and bleed as any human. In this form He is Jesus, the Son.

4. When He had completed his ministry on Earth, a human ministry that was of necessity limited to a small area and a relatively small number of people, He left and came back as the spirit Counselor to those He had prepared to receive it. And thus God remains with us ever since.

So there you have God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, three in one, all one being but in different forms.

My best explanation however inadequate.

We cant even visualize a 5 dimensional space, or fully nominalize the ideas of worlds great artists. How presumptive it would be to think that anyone ever accurately pigeonhole "God" into the symbols of a doctrine.

We use symbols to describe things that we can't understand. The correct symbol, ie Trinity vs Oneness, is the one that brings about the greatest degree of moral behavior in your dealings with the people in your life in any given moment.

My personal belief, is that because everything is unified, and that both doctrines are equally incorrect and correct because they are doctrines. They are symbolic. When you place your finger on the symbol of a lake on a map, your finger does not get wet.

The symbol of the Father means to me that which is the same yesterday today and forever. The everlasting, that is greater than any individual part, or time frame.

The Holy Spirit is the state of being that is produced in the present, by the awareness of the everlasting. The spirit of love, of peace, and of a sound mind. Like the wind, it can be known only by it's impact (see the fruits of the spirit).

The son, or the Christ, is the symbol of the Holy Spirit put into action, on earth, through human hands. This occurs over the span of time in which it is required to perform Christlike actions (we are the branches, also see Jesus' last words).

Yet all of the above describe the whole thing that is made up of God and by God (see John 1:1). We are not normally accustomed to understanding the universe 4 dimensionally (timeless, eternal) let alone the multiple possibilities that our actions create within that matrix (5 dimensions?), however, these three symbols, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are familiar enough that they can help to awaken an understanding of the divine within the soul if one is so inclined to pursue the calling of the still small voice.

Do a search and find what I posted before Terry. I spent hours on it and I refuted everyone of your statements with scripture; though I highly doubt you would see it that way.

Many mis statements - Only one rebuttal is necessary. A parable is just that - a parable. Case dismissed.

Few acknowledge that the law served as a "tutor leading to Christ" (Galatians 3:24). Jesus' death was in fulfillment of the law.

And, of course, Jesus could say that no one could come to the father except through him as that was his assignment.

One of Satan's lies was that he could turn any of God's creatures against him if enough pressure were brought to bear. This was his argument in Job 2:5. One of Jesus' assignments was to prove this a lie. He did this over and over, starting even before his temptation in Matthew chapter 4, reaching a painful climax with his execution as a blasphemer and traitor.

In all these, Jesus did not sin.

Satan thus failed to turn the one called "the first born of all creation" (Colossians 1:15)

Jesus is certaintly a man among men. Seperated from who he is when he was born into a human body , he became a man with the spirit of everlasting God which is where the seperation took place. But yet remaining Jesus is the eternal. No where will he ever die. 29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Mark 12: 29.
Jesus answered questions. When asked by the pharisess if he was God, he said you yourself has said so. I think it weakened Jesus to be born as a human being. And he expressed this over and again that all things are possible with God but with man there is weakness. God put all things in the hands of Jesus, all power.
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12. Genesis 1:3 God said; " Let there be light and there was light." And God saw that the light was good."
I do not know if Jesus is God, it seems he was created to bring all men into the spirit of light and the knowledge of the creator , GOD.