bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2021 09:21 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
That's a dodge. And untrue and nonfactual. The Trinity was a around a lot longer than any Germanics were even in the church.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2021 09:41 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
I dun told you.

You just didn't listen.

Hell is non-Biblical. But I said the Trinity was not mentioned by name.

This is different from not being mentioned. Check my posts. I already said the Trinity is a thing, mentioned even in the Old Testament. But not by name.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2021 08:59 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Dance, monkey, dance! And the Bible will still be filled with references to the Trinity.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2021 05:22 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
The WORD Trinity isn't used in the Bible.
The concept of Trinity is explained in the Bible.

If you read my posts more carefully, you would have realized there is a difference between mentioning a concept, and naming a term.

The ancient Jews knewn that there was a personified form of God.
They knew about Ruach ha'Kodesh (the spirit of the Lord).
They knew of God as an all-powerful Creator.

If you weren't so busy arguing, you might have listened to the part where I was agreeing.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2021 06:22 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
If you can't refute it, you bury it in manure, eh, bulma?
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2021 07:21 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Wtf?

I was agreeing with you (mostly), you didn't bother to read. Twice.

Fine then, here's some manure.
https://i1.wp.com/www.gardeningknowhow.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/manure.jpg?fit=1254%2C836&ssl=1
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2021 08:00 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Of course you'd have manure at hand. Like I said, you never disappoint even in the dismal.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2021 12:11 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Again, I told you the word Trinity is not in the Bible.

https://www.isaandislam.com/christian-beliefs/word-trinity-is-not-in-the-bible/
Even Muslims know this. And they are correct. In no chapter or verse does God or his followers say "Trinity."

HOWEVER... had you listened properly, there is in fact teaching of the Trinity in the Bible. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all are mentioned at some point or another.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/holy_spirit
(The Father is mainly called so by Jesus, and maybe later by his followers)
(And of course, the Son)

Trinity accounted for. Why are you arguing when this is not an argument?
The Anointed
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2021 12:41 am
@bulmabriefs144,
'HE" (singular term)
Is the FIRST and the LAST
The beginning and END'
The ALPHA and OMEGA
The FATHER and SON.

The ALPHA dies in the process of evolving into the OMEGA, and yet continue to exist in two separate time dimensions.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2021 09:13 am
@The Anointed,
You left out the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. Not God turning into Jesus. Jesus is God, Father is God, Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is not Holy Spirit, the Father is not the Son.

https://www.turnbacktogod.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/the-trinity-diagram.jpg
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2021 01:48 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Got another one unambiguously right, finally.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2021 01:49 pm
https://i.postimg.cc/T1VhnpH8/4.jpg
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2021 01:53 pm
So stimulating and refreshing - arguments about religious dogma. Like splashes from a river stream.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2021 04:13 pm
@snood,
This is much worse. This is a religious discussion that is much more World of Warcraft than St Augustine.

I keep wondering when we're getting to the love parts.
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2021 07:31 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
You left out the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. Not God turning into Jesus. Jesus is God, Father is God, Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is not Holy Spirit, the Father is not the Son.


Romans 1, 18: 20-23; Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. (Everting that you want to know about God is perceived in the created universe itself.) So those people have no excuse at all! They know God, but they do not give him the honour that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness. They say they are wise, but they are fools; instead of worshipping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortal human beings, etc.

Paul calls you an Idol worshiper, he says that your thoughts are complete nonsense, and that your mind is empty, filled only with darkness, which makes you blind to the one and only immortal God, the only God that was ever worshiped by Jesus. Paul calls you, who worship the man Jesus as GOD, a fool, who would dare to worship the immortal God in the form of a human being.

So, I will say no more, for Paul has revealed you to be the biblically ignorant fool that you are. Bye, Bye BMB.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 08:20 am
@The Anointed,
And what about this is nonsense?

The idol worshiper is you.

Let's repeat:
-A man named Heli, who you then give some Roman name like Alexander Helios III. Sorry, lemme stop you there. You've inserted a Ronan into the line of a Jewish family. The Jews, by definition did not mix, so this idea basically means her house is cut off from the genealogy. She's a non-Jew if this hapens. It is Eli, not Heli, and definitely not Alexander Helios III.
-You also say this Heli was on both lines (rejecting the Biblical genealogy), making them half-siblings.
-It also seems like you implied father-daughter incest, but you deny this later.
- You reject the virgin birth, instead believing that Jesus was not the Son of God, throughout actual points in his life when he addressed God as his Father, such as being in the temple, and referring to it as his father's house.
-In fact, you engage in magical thinking, deciding that someone with no bloodline suddenly becomes Son of God simply because God says "you are my son." But Jesus already declared God his Father in the temple!
-You also had some beef that I can't remember with either the crucifixion or the resurrection
-Oh yea, and you reject "begotten not made" in the Nicene Creed, declaring it to be a Catholic invention. Actually it's verified by the teaching of John 1, which tells us that Jesus has always existed, and wasn't simply some human born to die for our sins, but an eternal part of the Trinity. The Letters support this notion, and it is reasonable to assume the man Jacob wrestled with was actually Jesus.
-You seem to believe that Jesus is only a physical creation
-You take mentions of He as literally meaning that God or Jesus must be male, creating a fixed image of God. If God were intented to have a fixed image, wouldn't He have sent it down like the Ten Commandments? No, God is omnipotent, meaning He can appear to the pedophile as a little girl, to the Native American as a Cherokee or whatever suits, to a transgender person as a transgender God. God approaches each of us in a form that either challenges us (black Jesus to a KKK), comforts us, or appeals to us. To declare that you know how God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit looks is to commit idolatry
-For that matter, you seem to think the Holy Spirit is a nonsense idea

Meanwhile, I:
- Reject all paintings and depictions of Jesus as a fixed form, recognizing they are only guides and not the truth about Jesus
-Similarly, reject graven images, including that of God
-Accept the virgin birth as written in the Bible
-Accept Jesus as Son of God, as suggested in the Bible
-Accept the Holy Spirit, as Jesus himself says he will give his followers, and does with Pentecost
-Accept the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus
-Accept John 1 and the Nicene Creed
-In fact, the only thing vaguely heretical here is that I believe rebirth is a possibility for a loving God to redeem even the damned, and I say that Jesus could be female as easily as male. But even this is simply not stated, and there are numerous passages in the Bible that let us know that God isn't actually male bur spirit (spirit has no fixed gender).
The Anointed
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 04:07 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
Let's repeat:
-A man named Heli, who you then give some Roman name like Alexander Helios III. Sorry, lemme stop you there. You've inserted a Ronan into the line of a Jewish family. The Jews, by definition did not mix, so this idea basically means her house is cut off from the genealogy. She's a non-Jew if this hapens. It is Eli, not Heli, and definitely not Alexander Helios III.


From “The Ancestors of Jesus in First and Second Century Judea BCE”
By Robert Mock M.D.
December 2007.
Book One
Chapter Two we learn that this young maiden, Miriam, was a child of sorrow. Her father, Heli, a Davidic and Hasmonean prince, called Alexander Helios III, was apparently executed, in the world where many Davidian aspirants, as the “young lions of Judah”, were eliminated by the cruel and tyrannical King Herod the Great., Etc.

A son of the famous Boethus family of seven sons, Mary’s great-great-great grandfather, arrived into Jewish history as one of the giants of the priests of the House of Zadok. The High Priest Hananeel (Ananelus) the Egyptian/Jew was privileged to sacrifice one of the nine red heifers before the temple of Herod was destroyed in 70 AD.

The great grandfather of the biblical Jesus was Yehoshua/Jesus III, who was the high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC and is believed to have been murdered at the orders of Herod the Great. The sonless Yehoshua, had three daughters, Joanna, Elizabeth and Anna/Hanna, whose mother was from the tribe of Asher.

Knowing that his Zadokian lineage would become extinct unless his daughters were placed with future husbands according to the Torah, he married them off to chosen husbands.

Joanna, was betrothed to Joachim from the non-royal genetic lineage of David. The second daughter of Yehoshua III, was Elizabeth. This was the Elizabeth, who, at a very advanced age was to become the mother of John the Baptist in 7 BC, a year before the birth of Jesus and some 16 years after the death of her father ‘Yehoshua/Jesus III,’ in 23 BC, and she was betrothed to a Levite priest by the name Zacharias of the priestly course of Abijah.

The young Davidian prince Heli, [Alexander Helios III] the son, or adopted son of Mattathias ben Levi, was chosen by Yehoshua/Jesus III the high priest in Jerusalem, as the candidate to marry his daughter Hanna/Anna.

Jehoshua III, the High Priest until 23 BC, is supposed to have died three years before the birth of his grand-daughter ‘Mary.’ If it was his death that ended his period as high priest in Jerusalem in the year of 23 BC, this would mean that Mary was born in 20 BC, the same year as the birth of Philip the son of Herod and his young Jewess wife, ‘Cleopatra.’

Therefore, Mary would have been 7 years old when her father Heli was murdered in 13 BC, and 14 years old when she gave birth to Jesus, who was born in 6 BC, two years before the death of Herod the Great in 4 BC, making Mary about 47 years old when Jesus, the first of her three biological sons, was crucified.

There are two men from around this period, who were named ‘Alexander Helios III’, one was the son of Cleopatra and Mark Anthony, who was adopted out after the suicidal deaths of his parents, with absolutely no historical evidence of what may have happened to him, the other, was the son (Or adopted son) of Mattathias=Mattat and his wife Esther of Jerusalem, also known as Queen Alexandra II, a close friend of Cleopatra the Queen of Egypt and the mother of Alexander Helios III, and his sister Mariamne, who is the mother of Aristobulus and another Alexander, who is not to be confused with his uncle, ‘Alexander Helios III’, the (Thought to be) step brother of Mariamne.

Alexandra was to became the mother (Or step-mother) of Heli the son or adopted son of Mattat, ‘Prince Alexander Helios III’, who became the father of Mary the mother of Jesus.

Esther of Jerusalem can be identified as the future Maccabee Queen known by her Greek name as Queen Alexandra II, who was thought to be the great grandmother of Yeshua (Jesus) on his father’s side. His father being, Alexander Helios III the son, or adopted son of Queen Alexandra II.

I realise that the subject of the parentage of Jesus is much too deep for a biblical ignoramus such as yourself, so, I'll just leave you to attempt to digest this information first, before returning to respond to the rest of your ignorant rubbish.

BTW, It is said that after the death of her father, Alexander Helios=Heli, “who was a father of renown,” that the seven-year-old Mary [who is believed by some to be the grand-daughter of Mark Antony, and by others, to have been the grand-daughter of Queen Alexandra II, who is thought to have adopted Alexander Helios III after the suicidal death of his parents], was removed from her mother and taken north into the land of Galilee where she was raised under the protection of the Jewish zealots, whose aim it was, to throw off the yoke of Roman rule and establish a descendant of King David, back on the throne of Israel.

Catch ya later kid.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2021 01:33 am
@The Anointed,
Let's repeat.

2 Timothy 4:3 talks about people acquiring for themselves teachers to satisfy various notions. The passage you quoted from Romans is another mention. Jesus warns of false prophets.

How to test whether a teaching is confusion and idolatry. Galatians 1:8 gives yet another test. If it's against the Gospel, even if an angel from heaven tells you it, they are under a curse.

Robert Mock MD. So this is someone who has credentials. Lemme let you in on a little secret. Humans value credentials. God doesn't choose people based on what they were able to earn, and that's assuming the best of times. Occasionally, people have bought or used connections to get credentials. But reading the Gospel and most of the rest of the Bible we find out what God really cares about is grace. Grace can't be earned. In fact, one of the people in Jewish history was going to get credentials simply by being born right was tricked out of his inheritance and his blessing. God favored the scoundrel that managed this. Not for his creds, but his lack of any honest merit, God still loved him. So no, this man's MD means nothing to me.

Back to Galatians. Even if Robert Mock had a freaking halo on him, so long as he teaches things that are against the Gospel, buh bye to him.

The time will come when you have to discover whether your loyalty lies with God, or with humans and their manmade objects and ideals. Doing so means to discard any teachings that lead away from this notion, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son to the end that all who believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

1. Does this say God did not really have a Son, he was only adopted by God declaring him to be his Son? No. False teaching.
2. Does it say Joseph was the father? No. False teaching.
3. Heli? No. Read the passage carefully. You are being misled. Heli isn't anything but Mary's father. I've read some online articles pushing the same idea you promoted, so I checked them against the Gospel. Wrong! False teaching.
4. Does it say Jesus didn't REALLY die on the cross, as some Muslims believe? No, hell no. The Gospel is clear that Jesus hauled a cross to where he was executed. As Son of God, he had the power to save himself and everyone told him that if he was who he said he was, that he should come down from the cross and save himself.
5. Does it say there wasn't REALLY eternal life? No, all Gospels are clear that Jesus raised from the dead, showing all of us that eternal life is possible.

It also mentions a conspiracy between the religious leaders who don't believe in Jesus and the state. At this point, it was Rome with the Jews, but today many bishops are in league with our government leaders instead of following God. They all make excuses to why I couldn't have happened. You see, the Pharisees are still among us! They made up lies back then, they make them up today! Some are even in the church! You know them as people who teach us that if we are good enough we can get into Heaven. And some of us have become Pharisees ourselves, while others basically tortured ourselves our entire lives, never realizing grace, because the spirit of perfectionism took hold instead. You see this in every faith, the leaders reject Jesus because they think they will lose followers. They think Jesus is about another religion that preaches that only they have the right path.

6. On the contrary, Jesus tells us he is the way, truth, and life nobody gets to the Father but through him, and they see this as saying "You need to become a Christian to be saved." Everyone thinks this, from atheists, to Muslims, to Jews, to Hindus, Buddhists, and so on. They all say something like " Jesus was a great teacher... " but seldom is Jesus explained as to what he means. Even Christians think it's about being part of the fanclub.
Lemme stop everyone there. You do NOT need to be a Christian to be saved. You need to accept Jesus. Jesus never ever told people to join his group. He said "I and the Father are one." To accept Jesus is to accept God as a personal force in your life. He said when referring to the good shepherd, "And I have many flocks that are not of this fold." These religions are all to leave behind their folly at the end of the age, to follow God instead. Some of them may believe in reincarnation or karma or whatever their dogma teaches, but the point is they will no longer be led around by the blind, but by people who can see God's intentions. No longer by stiff-necked rabbis and Pharisees of Judaism, Hinduism, etc but by the passionate.

This last one is a gospel teaching that everyone seems to fail to get, which is why we still have stupid religious squabbles. So you have heard about the Gospel. Do you still intend to follow some two-bit hack with an MD? Or will you trust in God not men?



The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2021 01:47 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
How to test whether a teaching is confusion and idolatry. Galatians 1:8 gives yet another test. If it's against the Gospel, even if an angel from heaven tells you it, they are under a curse.


From the Gospel of Luke 3: 23; When Jesus began his work, he was about thirty years old. He was the son, of Joseph, who was the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, etc, etc.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2021 02:32 am
@The Anointed,
Dude. Read Biblical interpretations instead of this guy.

Matthew tells us this:
Quote:

...Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah


Joseph's father is Jacob. And his father is Matthan. And his father is Eleazar.

Four generations, no Eli.

Back to Luke. This is a crossdressing genealogy.

That is to say, Luke decides to tell Mary's line. But because the Jews were an incredibly patriarchal society, he tells it as though it starts from Joseph, omitting Mary's name. Eli is only Mary's father. Period.

Now, read this passage. Carefully...
Quote:
23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,
the son of Josek, the son of Joda,
27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,
the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melki,
the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse,
the son of Obed, the son of Boaz,
the son of Salmon,[d] the son of Nahshon,
33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,[e]
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu,
the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,
the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan,
the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,
the son of Noah, the son of Lamech
37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.


So it was thought. Jesus wasn't the son of Joseph, but he was adopted by Joseph. He was however a son of David, and a Son of God. Both by tracing genealogy all the way back. And by the circumstances of his birth. But this is Mary's line.

At King David, one line goes through Solomon, who was "wise" according to the words of the Bible but not according to his many actions. Nor are his children, who double down and wreck the kingdom. This is Joseph's line. We have Mary, who is a poor girl unable to inherit anything because (1) women have no rights so her line is treated as crap and (2) the Jews fangirl over Solomon so Nathan is treated like chopped liver.

 

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