On the edge and toppling off....

Sun 13 Jan, 2008 04:06 pm
So many issues at the mo - too much to deal with and don't know where to post - guess I come under medical and health...

just need to get some stuff out of my head and need a strangers persective - maybe a kick up the a*se, maybe someone can offer me a way of dealing with one thing at a time.

Yes - I do have a counsellor
Yes - I do have friends but they hurt for me
Yes - I am feeling very sad

Can I do anything to help myself - you tell me - please. Sh*t - I'm trying - talking to a bunch of folk in cyberspace.... that's a start I reckon

Have been reading various threads - and I must admit - you guys do make me laugh so maybe, just maybe - all you veteran posters can give me just an ounce of strength.

SO - do I post here and put the issues out on this board....

Long and short....................I'm a mess!
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 26 • Views: 150,225 • Replies: 1,743
Topic Closed

Sun 13 Jan, 2008 04:16 pm
Sure. Expect some serious advice for maybe 5 or 10 posts. Then we will digress, so be prepared.
0 Replies
Sun 13 Jan, 2008 04:36 pm
K - first up - copied from my other post - Aspergers thread today

The joys of mental health issues:

Have a son who has been dx Aspergers at the age of 11.

No matter how many times my ex and I asked EVERYONE for help for my son when he was little - we were told - pushy parents, he's growing up, don't worry - he'll be fine etc etc blah blah.

I worked at the school (only 40 kidlets) that my son went to. He was very protected there. He was angelic at school - never got in trouble, was well liked - and all that - I would have so much trouble getting him to go to school - did anyone believe me - NO! As I work in education I called in the Ed Psychologist - I was overruled by the Headteacher - my child was a model pupil. Didnt matter what happened when he walked through the door after school and any tiny little thing that had happened at school - someone looked at him in the wrong way - which could cause a meltdown - well, that had to be down to the parents. Always down to the parents. No-one listened.

2 weeks before he started secondary school he started self harming (cutting). Finally someone started listening. My son started having counselling. It took 5 months and a threat of him committing suicide rather than attend a technology lesson at school - and hitting a police officer so he could be locked up in a cell so he didnt have to see the bullies at school - before someone finally listened to us. TOO LATE. Damage done. System let us down. System let him down.

Long story cut short - 4 years down the line - he is now in care having attempted suicide - who knows whether he will make it to tomorrow - maybe he will live til hes 90.

NO-ONE LISTENED. No-one saw his pain except for us. His masking strategies are absolutely incredible. His thought processing is ... off the wall. Sometimes it can take weeks for him to process something that someone has said - sometimes we never new what would set off the meltdowns. But when they happened - his pain, his fear, his anxieties, his very extreme nature meant he would self destruct - pick up a knife and hurt himself. He was admitted to a psych unit - dx Aspergers. He's had 4 psychs who say they have never encountered such a complex child. The 5th psych who he now sees says she questions the dx.

The whole system in my country lets these children down. I have fought so long and hard. Got him into a special school - was told that was the way to go - (Aspergers School) He tried to hang himself 10 months after he started. He was then placed in care for his own protection - thats what THEY told us to do - the professionals. Tomorrow he moves into another placement - he is 15 - hasn't been in education for 4 years - is having his own house with a "scaffolding" team of support therapists around him - in other words - taken out of society as he is so emotionally damaged - BECAUSE NO ONE LISTENED TO US - and every day I wonder if the next phone call will be the one that says he has finally given up.

He is a wonderful child - very high functioning. So clever. We love him so much. I can't take care of his special needs - his 24/7 care - and I am told to accept what I cant change - if he does commit suicide - and yes, he isn't the norm in Aspergers - tho there is no norm - then at least I am told I did everything right by him to protect him.


He should have been helped when we asked at the age of 6 years old. We should have been listened to. He should not have had to go through this. Neither should we.

Everyone has let him down. I don't want anyone else to ever have to watch their child go through what mine does on a daily basis.

Why did it take so long to diagnose? I ask myself the same question every day. I guess - doctors, professionals, social workers, education - all thought they knew my child better than me. Why did it take for him to harm himself before someone listened to what was happening in our home.

Our home is no longer a home. Marriage broken, son in care - just me and my little boy in our broken home. WHY? Very good question.

So this leads me on to the fact that my marriage had to end - for a number of reasons which included the relationship between my son and his dad - who is a good person - but couldnt deal with the problems. My ex started drinking and blacking out - i ended up getting bruised!

So now - going through a divorce tho ex and I are good friends. In the process of selling the house.

Am about to have major surgery on my feet - thats under another post (foot fusion surgery) - due to my rheumatoid delights. Going to have to learn to walk again if the surgery is successful.

Trying to come to terms with a break up with the man I am in love with - but due to his kids/my kids problems - we can't be together.

Basically - I dont know which way to turn. I have to get strong. But I don't know how to deal with my son and this surgery and the divorce and the house and feeling so peed off the whole time.

Lost my faith - lost my energy - think i've lost my mind - well - thats a presupposition there was one there to start off with - and am scared at times of what i'm going to do. Want to stop feeling and want the pain to stop


any thoughts folks - sure someone will come along and tell me to stop feeling sorry for myself - which i should -

but i'm so damn tired of every day

anyone still awake!
0 Replies
Mon 14 Jan, 2008 05:35 am

You're loaded down with unproductive rage and in danger of going under.

You have every right to be angry. You've done your damnedest and your son has been institutionalized, your marriage is kaput and your soon to be ex-husband is a drunk and more of a drain than a support.

None of these problems are going to go away. "Poof, vanish," won't work.

Neither you nor your son will earn extra remission points because of the injustice of nine years of being ignored by the experts.

All the same, your righteous anger has become unproductive rage and you're being torn apart.

Get off the treadmill. For the time being, park your problems. Your son is being taken care of--and down the road he'll need you, healed and supportive. Your soon-to-be-ex husband is his own worry.

Talk with your therapist. When you discount your problems--which are major--who are you? What is left of you after your problems are subtracted? Is Mom In Crisis the only identity you have left?
Mon 14 Jan, 2008 06:27 am
Izzie- What happened with your son sucks big time. But history is history, and there is nothing that you can do about the past. But you can look towards the future.

Spending time blaming all the wrongs that were done with reference to your son, is not helpful to you. All these recriminations do nothing but corrode your innards. Holding on to the anger is like pouring acid on your very being. Yeah, a lot of people screwed up. But there isn't anything that you can do about it, so you really need to let the anger go. Be content that your son is now getting the care that he needs.

IMO, your big problem is that too much is happening, all at once. Divorce, sale of house, son in care, and you have a bum foot that needs surgery. All this is sapping your emotional as well as physical strength.

You need to tackle each problem in order of priority, one at a time. On the positive side, your ex is being cooperative. THAT is a comfort not enjoyed by many women going through a divorce. Yes, there are many emotional changes that go with breaking up a marriage (been there, done that) but you have time on your side to deal with the fallout.

You have been living with a myriad of stressful problems for so many years. Now that many of them are resolved, there is a huge hole in your life. Believe it or not, people become used to high drama, contstantly "living on the edge" emotionally, and then find difficulty when things settle down.

Right now, you need to deal with your medical problem, the foot surgery. That is your most pressing current problem. Obsessing about the past is not only unproductive, but emotionally draining. "Woulda, coulda, shoulda, does nothing to help, and tears you down. You need all the strength that you can muster to get through the surgery and subsequent rehabilitation.

I am gratified that you have the good sense to see a therapist. I think that it is important at this time for you to have a professional "ear" to listen, and to help you get back on track when your mind wanders far afield.

I have said this before, and I will say it again. One of the most important things that I have learned in my time on earth is that life IS unfair, mother nature is capricious, and that there is no justice in the world. Yet we still need to cope, and if we can get over the idea that something should have been how we wanted it when it wasn't, we will emerge far stronger and happier.

You sound like a nice person, who has a lot of "stuff" on your plate. You CAN get past it, and put your life back together in a far more productive and satisfying way.
0 Replies
Mon 14 Jan, 2008 10:08 am
Who am I - you know, right now - I haven't a clue what's left of me.

I know you are right - the rage inside me about the injustice of my son is eating me alive and is obviously counter-productive. I have never actually let it out - over the years I had to be the strong one who fought for his rights - that is why everyone sees me as being able to cope. My son is being cared for now and tho I live with the thoughts of what the next phone call is going to tell me - I know I physically cannot look after his needs. I still do not know how to accept the fact he may commit suicide - I don't think I will ever accept that but I am realising I do not have the control over what he will or wont do. I do wish it had never been this way.

My marriage - well that was easy to let go of - I ended it for the right reasons even tho it went against what I believed in - it broke up what was left of our family and broke up the home - but it was the right decision - my ex is actually a very wonderful person - but he has never been able to accept they way our eldest son is - I consider that a failing on his part but I do not judge him per se because I know he does love his son and he has had to deal with it in his way in order for him to survive. My son has many times chased my ex around the house with the threat to kill him, before turning the knife on himself in desperation. My little boy has seen things no child should ever see - walking into the kitchen and finding his brother with 3 knives and a pool of blood around him. Its just very sad. When it all got too much for my ex he then binge drank - I paid the price - but so did he and will regret that the rest of his life. He's really not a bad person and actually loves me, as I do him, but to remain married put our lives at too much risk. He is actually reasonably happy now with a new partner and is a great dad to our youngest son (10).

I did find happiness and peace with a chap with whom I am very much in love with - and tho he feels the same for me - 3 months ago he had to leave me because of issues with his adult kids and my eldest. Too complicated. That is also very sad for me - but I would not trade 1 minute we spent together because I found a happiness and love that I could never imagine. I had peace for first time in many years when we were together.

Healthwise - I know I have to get myself right in my head for this surgery. I am so scared of not being able to walk again - my disease is active and my lupus can kick in at any time too. I'm scared of being alone throughout this and though everyone wants to help me - I am in complete shutdown because I am so tired of fighting everything. I cannot let my family or friends in right now - it hurts too much. I guess I do need to get off the treadmill and park up for a while. (well in less than a month I 'aint going to be going anywhere! - ho ho)

You are right - when things settle - when the dramas lessen and start becoming more stable - its hard to stop the emotions that you deal with every day - I know that now, when I need my strength to go through this surgery (both feet), that I am falling apart because I just dont feel strong. There is nothing left to fight for. Its all gone.

My priority has to be getting me well - I have to let go of the anger and sadness - I have to focus. This is my 10th major surgery since I returned to England in 1994 - I am 43 - the fear with this one is very real - but you are absolutely right - can't change the way it is - so gotta get on with it.

I want for the tears and pain to stop. I feel so empty inside and scared for the future. That will get me nowhere. I am trying to be strong. I do still laugh and get on with what I need to do - so, right this minute - it's all a bit more bearable. Night-time is the worst - the loneliness is horrible - I miss the man I love so much. I miss my peace.

Thanku for listening and responding. I appreciate it.
Mon 14 Jan, 2008 11:44 am
type away all your worries and as you see, we can help as much as we can.
Very Happy
keep your head up and SMILEEE

0 Replies
Mon 14 Jan, 2008 12:26 pm
Hey thatsme - Mrs Vent at the mo..... just need to get the thoughts outta my head and maybe it'll stop me spinning...

maybe I should re-inVENT me
maybe I should get past all these eVENTs
maybe when I have my wheels after surgery I can VENTure out and spin them instead of my head
maybe my future will be a new adVENTure...

hey this venting is inVENTive ....

omg - so gotta get a life a?

thanku - will keep writing - its therapeutic - talking to A2K is helping me...

or have I actually lost the plot now? Shocked
0 Replies
Mon 14 Jan, 2008 12:30 pm
I have never actually let it out - over the years I had to be the strong one who fought for his rights - that is why everyone sees me as being able to cope.

Izzie- Being Wonder Woman is a difficult role to play in life. You have been riding on endorphins for so long, that it is difficult for you to sit back and let people who care about you help.

Is there anyone that you trust, with whom you can share your concerns? I don't mean "letting it all hang out", but just someone that you can confide in, who would understand what you are going through. If you have someone like that, reach out, and let her be a friend to you.

One of the things that many people find helpful is to write it all out..................the hurt, the anger, and the disappointment that you feel because of the way that your life has developed. Get it out on paper, every emotion, every hurt, all the things that you feel. Then, with great ceremony, burn the darn thing, and be done with that part of your life.

Later, sit down and write all the good things about your life, the stuff that makes you happy. The smallest thing that gives you cheer will do. Hold on to that writing, add to it, and refer to it whenever you are feeling "down".

You CAN get through this, stronger and happier.
0 Replies
Mon 14 Jan, 2008 02:38 pm
I have a close girlfriend - my best friend - she is my other half - we talk - but I know she hurts. I have 4 very close friends dotted around the country and in the US. They would do anything for me, as would my family.

I cannot make my illness go away. I cannot make my disease inactive. But I won't let it defeat me (I hope). I am very scared - so are my family and friends - I don't want this surgery, they don't want me to go through it - but it's the way it is and not much I can do about it.

I know I am shutting my friends and family out because I know that when they see me they feel my pain and sadness. My mom keeps saying to me, as much as I hurt for my child, she hurts for me - my Dad can hardly look at me because he is so sad - and I can't look at them because I feel guilty. If I don't tell them how I feel, if they don't see me because I won't let them come over - then they won't hurt quite so much. I just tell them I'm OK and doing something. Stupid a? But I really don't want to see or talk to anyone. And yet - look at what I am doing on here. Makes no sense to the mad woman who is typing into cyberspace.

I spoke to my best friend last nite for about 2 hours and cried for about half of that. She knows exactly when to call me and doesn't allow me NOT to talk - she said the same thing to me - she said to think of all the good things that have happened in my life and try to balance the good with the "not so good"……

I have people who love me, have been loved, I bought my first home at 22, travelled the world backpacking alone at 23, have pretty much had a silver spoon in my mouth for my entire life, had the fairytale wedding, 2 beautiful children (one by successful IVF), met incredible inspirational people throughout my life, lived in the US for 4 years, live in a mansion in the foothills of the moors (soon to be sold but I did get my dream), have a loving family, had good jobs and, most importantly I have the best friends - how incredibly fortunate am I? I fell in love with a man last year who made me smile from the inside out, whose soul I could feel when I looked in his eyes and whose gentleness and love for me made me feel whole. For a moment in time I had some peace. Many people may never experience that feeling or that form of love.

I know how lucky I am, I know I have led a charmed life. I am very blessed.

So why do I feel so sad - why am such a miserable git? Why don't I want to wake up in the morning. Where is my perspective.

My girlfriend made me think real hard last nite. This is the first time in my life that I have REACTED differently to how I have ever acted before. In the past I have fought for everything I have wanted to achieve. I'm not wonder woman - I am just pig headed and stubborn and if I believe in it and it involves my friends and family - I will fight to make sure it happens, whatever it is, no matter how long it takes.

NOW - I am no longer fighting for my child - he moved into his house today and I know he will never return to me - he's my boy - and he's not my boy… but he is safer there than he would be with me because I cannot protect him from himself

NOW - I am not fighting for the man I am in love with - because the right thing to do is let him go … love sometimes cannot conquer all… and when you love someone unconditionally and without reservation….. then it's easy to let them go

NOW - I am being completely selfless, doing what is right - letting the people I love move on with their lives - because it is right - (not a martyr, not even a real good person, just doing what is right)

Other than my little boy - the 2 people who mean more to me than life itself are not with me - it may be right………..

BUT IT FEELS SO PANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Izzie now stamps her feet and shouts "It's Not Fair" - ok done that - now comes back to reality)

This emotion is so strange - the loving someone so much that you let them go because you love them. And in the same breath - I think that I would rather not love ever again - anyone or anything - because the pain that can come with that is too unbearable.

I really can ramble on - can talk for England once I get going - I hope you don't mind - it really is helping letting it out - and because it's to folk who I can't hurt - it feels as though the pressure is less - and who can give me the perspective I need which my friends and family can't - or whom I won't let - coz they are too close for comfort.

Does that make any sense at all. I apologise if it doesn't.

I don't know what I'm thinking. Just a mind of knots.
0 Replies
Mon 14 Jan, 2008 03:42 pm
OK - just figured it - peed off again now - the reason I push them all away is coz all they've ever known is me being strong (except for when my son made his attempt) - now that I am a snivelling wreck I'm not allowing them in - I go to work and am all smiley and "normal" (everyone knows what's going on but they have troubles of their own so no-one really wants to know someone elses cr*p) - then the family/friends - well I'm not allowing them to see "me" coz then they get upset…………… and I don't wanna see them get upset coz I need them to be strong - I would rather not let them near me coz …. it makes me weak...weaker.

How ridiculous is that? I am weak right now - I'm not whole.

It's easier to talk to strangers who don't know me than be honest with my world.

I have only cried in front of my eldest son properly ONCE - a few weeks ago - it scared him so much that he rang his care staff and said he thought I had gone doolally.

I didn't cry - haven't cried with the man who is not with me … I know he hurts as much as me - we know each others pain - we cannot see each other (but I will see him before my surgery - something I know I have to do - I haven't told him about my operation)

I can cry with my girlfriend on the phone because I know whatever I say she will keep to herself and not tell my family all the awful scary thoughts I have

So - I get home each day and cry a river, then go all happy ( well not happy - but as normal as poss) when my youngest son comes in from school, then get all pathetic when he goes to bed -

One minute I can be laughing at one of the threads on here or talking to someone on the phone - the next I am blubbing again........

What's that all about - I can sit here whining and moaning - for what - coz I'm a scared, stupid silly moo who really just wants to have a hug - a hug from the man who is so close and yet a million miles from me.

That's it, isn't it? Shocked

Oh I wish my brain would engage.
0 Replies
Tue 15 Jan, 2008 02:25 pm

Vent away. You've got years of festering suffering.

I wish I had a Fast Forward button I could lend you.

Hold your dominion.
0 Replies
Tue 15 Jan, 2008 02:31 pm
Thanks Noddy -

Am having a good 15 mins here......... posting pics in the gallery

(start to get all grumpy and confused again when I have to go to bed and the hamsters start spinning their wheels and then the rollercoaster starts up)

for the moment - am smiling.

I thank you.
0 Replies
Tue 15 Jan, 2008 07:33 pm

Check out controlled breathing exercises. They may not inculcate Oriental Detachment, but they can stop the What If Treadmill.
0 Replies
Fri 18 Jan, 2008 09:02 am
What a difference a few days makes....
Just wanted to let those of you have offered me advice and allowed me my "feeling sorry for myself trip" that I feel I have scrambled right back up onto terra firma.

I think that you were right where the years of what's been going on have taken their toll and actually eroded the person who I was - however, in the last few days, having reached rock bottom last week - I have not thought too much about the past, been distracting myself and feeling "me" again without feeling guilty about having a laugh and a joke around.

I know I shouldn't be feeling guilty but it does kinda happen when the daily phone calls (sometimes up to a dozen, if not more, calls) from my big lad are so soul-destroyingly angry and sad.

BUT - in saying that - he moved to his new house with his team of care staff on Monday and BLESS HIM he has coped fantastically well. First time I can say since 2004 that I am beginning to see him responding to the "bigger picture" and taking a step forward without going 10 steps back. I am so proud of him.

I am still sad Crying or Very sad about other aspects of my life and still cr*pping myself about the impact of surgery and all that goes along with that (just over 3 weeks now) BUT I am facing my future with a great deal more clarity now and I am sure that now, the only way is up. Not naive enough to think it's going to be plain sailing - but I've sailed the seas in Force 9's before so - BRING IT ON.

So - really just wanted to say "thanku" for listening to me when I needed an ear and a shoulder - and I shall continue to A2K to keep me in touch with the big wide world.

My motto has been "Live, Laugh, Love" for the very longest time and I live by the "Anything Is Possible" stance. Finally, I have started believing in that again, which has surprised me, but it sure does feel better now. Smile

Always one for wearing my heart on my sleeve - but comfortable that is what makes me "me", and I'm not gonna change.

Thanks folks!
0 Replies
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 02:50 pm

Again, welcome.

You're an asset.

Hold your dominion.
0 Replies
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 02:51 pm
Dominion being held.

Thanku Smile
0 Replies
Mon 21 Jan, 2008 08:07 pm
Dear Izzie, I am so very touched by all your probs and wish I could help. I too have been hit by quite a few to put it mildly (a similar package in fact) and all I have learnt is first, don't worry about anything that you don't have to worry about at that very moment. You do need all your strength to get through.

I do agree what what others have said, let go of the unproductive anger. Be determined to use every scrap of energy you can in a positive way, for your future. It soon becomes habit if you make an utterly determined effort to chase away negative thoughts by hopeful ones and keep smiling at yourself in the mirror. Take pride in any little extra courage you can find.

I have worked with children with various levels of Aspergers and known someone close with it. Things may improve -but they may not. So whilst accepting the present situation realistically, it may be worth retaining a teeny bit of awareness, I can't say hope, that one day there may possibly be improvement.

Re the love breakup, it's so gut wrenchingly tough, my heart goes out to you, but each day you do leave it a little further behind and the pangs do tend to lessen. And ill health, well I was diagnosed last year with a hideously painful and progressive illness which will leave me a very poor quality of life so know how hard it is to cope. Just try to accept the treatment as placidly as you can and appreciate the wealth of support you have on these threads - I have found that such a boon. There are some truly delightful people here. If you want, do please PM me as soon as you are able to and we'll have some direct laughs and friendship.

Look forward not back, Izzie. You've done all YOU can for your older son, in certain situations the MOTHER is not the best person to help directly - I had to learn that with one of my children and it felt so wrong but eventually I saw that it was true and things improved.

Wishing you peace of mind and happier days to come. x
0 Replies
Tue 22 Jan, 2008 09:44 am
Hey Whiteviolet - glad you knew I was trying to let you know that I wanted to reply.

The anger has receded now - think I had to get to that rock bottom place. Scared myself at just how close to the edge I was. It was just all too much to deal with.

But - am back with my spirit (and not the Gin variety) and stepping forward slowly and surely. A2K has made a huge difference funnily enough - just letting the "me" side of "me" back out and no-one taking my gaming around too seriously and no-one judging me. The support and generosity of folk here is amazing. The crew here make me laugh out loud. I am smiling at myself and sticking my tongue out and that'll get me through the surgery.

I'm sorry you have to face the burden of illness too. It can be so tiring. We will catch up when I get the PM rights!!!!!!!!!!!! I am like a walking pharmacy these days - shake me and I rattle - but 3 weeks today I will be sleeping like a baby, morphine at the press of a button, and facing the uncertain world in front of me in different way than I have ever known.

With regard to my 15yr old boy - well - he is doing so well right now. We are expecting the fall to come hard and fast when he starts to "process" - but the "scaffolding team" around him are good - and I am just, JUST, beginning to put a little faith into them. I know that in 3 weeks I won't be able to help him in any way at all - so I have to start trusting them. It is very difficult to trust after what has happened to him and my broken family.

You are absolutely right about Mother not always being the best person to help - you have no idea (well, you may do from what you say) how long it has taken me to accept that reality - or how many people have judged me on where my son is. They know diddly squat - but then they don't really matter. It has been very hard not being Mom to one, and being Mom to the other. Major struggle there. But acceptance is there pretty much. So again, another step forward.

As for the man in my life - or not as the case may be - well - that is probably the hardest thing right now - easy to have let him go because I love him with every breath - but hard because we share our souls. That will always be. He does not know about my surgery - because I won't tell him and put him through that. That is hard - to keep a secret from him. He lives just a few miles away and I have not seen him since the day he had to go, 3 months now. He needs to do his thing and I have to allow him. But it won't stop - the feeling is always there - for both of us. I am beginning to make my peace with that. I will love him til my last breath and he will love me always.

Anyways - focus forward - focus positive - I am at present debating how many party tricks I think I will be able to do in my wheelchair - gotta start the wheels turning - and off I'll go! I am sure I will be wheel spinning very quickly. Laughing

Thanku for your kindness. Sure I will be PMing soon. Laughing
0 Replies
Tue 22 Jan, 2008 05:38 pm
Re: On the edge and toppling off....
Izzie wrote:
Long and short....................I'm a mess!

Sorry to hear it, Izzie.

(I know this condition well! :wink:)

In a mad rush this morning, but will be back later for a proper read!
0 Replies

Related Topics

Immortality and Doctor Volkov - Discussion by edgarblythe
Sleep Paralysis - Discussion by Nick Ashley
Surgery--Again - Discussion by Roberta
PTSD, is it caused by a blow to the head? - Question by Rickoshay75
THE GIRL IS ILL - Discussion by Setanta
  1. Forums
  2. » On the edge and toppling off....
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 07/12/2024 at 11:45:45