nimh wrote:I mean, Walter already answered to your initial specification that yes, he had come across a number of cases that fit your description of "parents [who] kill their children and then launch an elaborate scheme to hide the body and then claim abduction to cover it up". So then you said that this was still not similar enough, and that such experience would only be relevant if previous cases also matched the X, Y and Z of this case. Hence my impression that you narrowed the question ever further because you didnt like the answer you were getting.
Well, indeed I don't know about two doctors who stayed in a foreign country on holidays etc.
I mean, it really is nearly impossible to find two nearly identical cases in criminal law.
(That's why criminal law [here] should cover all possibilties - as an aside.)
I don't think they are guilty. This is actually reminding me more of the college girl that went missing in the tropics. The cops had to come up with something, someone... The media was putting a lot of pressure on them to solve the case and they were clueless.
Can any parent here imagine the horror of losing a child? Can anyone then imagine being accused around the entire world of having murdered their own child? And, imagine being the parents and there's no body. You don't even know that she is dead. Is she suffering somewhere and crying for Mommy? That goes beyond any pain I can imagine. I'd be totally beserk by now.
Having it played out in the media that I'm a suspect would put me over the top.
Squinny, I was talking to my step daughter about this case last night. We were discussing what I said in a previous post about a percentage of a populations need to rush out and find someone to blame. We (and when I say we, I'm meaning this as a generalization, not a literal, all encompassing "we") need a witch to burn, a monster for the villagers to hunt down and destroy.
Perhaps it has something to do with needing a feeling of closure. Or maybe if "we" focus our attention on one party, it makes "us" feel as though we are doing something.
Your post hit home with me Squinny, because not only would I not want to feel the horror of losing a child, but also wouldn't want complete strangers conduct a running commentary implicating me or a loved one, based on their own personal experiences, opinions, the the rumor mill.
This is truly a case where none of us would want to walk a mile in their shoes, and no one can truly know the feelings they are going through.
It's unfortunate this thread has fallen, like so many do, into the realm of one side trying to prove the other wrong, rather than respectfully listening to each others words. Without going back and re-reading every post I've made on this thread, I'd like to apologize for any postings on here that may have seemed to be endorsing one way of thinking or another.
I do this so I don't have to be concerned about fielding any more sarcasm that does nothing to enhance anyone's understanding of this sad case. From here out, anything I say is in the spirit of civil discussion. Not meaning to invite unnecessary commentary of a personal nature.
That said, and moving on without looking backwards....I really do feel it unfair to make any lighthearted comments at all about this case. There are many things in this world that can make us smile, or laugh out loud. Lord knows I love a good laugh, as anyone here knows. However, there are a few things that are so heartbreaking, like a missing child, that I personally cannot bear to be light about. That's just me, but I couldn't imagine myself being anything but serious about the fact a small child is missing, quite possibly dead. It has nothing to do with a particular case being highly publicized or not. Any child that disappears is not a lighthearted subject.
If I want a smile, I'll personally look elsewhere. It isn't hard to find things to uplift us during the day, this just isn't one of them.
Because I wouldn't wish on anyone the horror of loosing your child, I can only remain open to valid evidence, not wanting to make the mistake of further ruining someones life. I would have no way of knowing if the McCanns are reading this thread....perhaps it is a long shot, but I cannot know for sure.
With the premise of "innocent until proven guilty" I feel I need to proceed without making any comments that I may live to rue.
If it comes out that the parents were involved, there's all the time in the world to trash them.
Until that time, I'm trying to imagine what I would feel like, going through such a terrible time, and being hounded by the press, and condemned with heresay.
I remember a personal incident in my life where I was so totally convinced of someones "guilt".
I was wrong.
Now I have to live with the knowledge that, against all odds and logic, a person I condemned in my mind, was in fact, innocent.
In addition, I grew up being mistrusted by the people who were supposed to love me and care for me. Not because of anything in particular I did, but because that was how they were raised to view the world.
I decided to break that cycle, so, I'm taking this situation seriously, and refuse to make judgements until I am made aware of evidence that more clearly tells a story.
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, indeed I don't know about two doctors who stayed in a foreign country on holidays etc.
How about give me a rough summary of a case that comes to your mind which is similar to this one. For more details about what I'm referring to, since it seems to be that if I myself am more specific that means that I don't like the more general answer and am simply moving the goal post, you could look at Chai's post several pages back.
nimh wrote:FreeDuck wrote:But I see no reason to be so willing to believe the worst of these people when their case does not fit any of the typical examples of parents killing their own children.
And your impression of what constute "the typical examples" is still derived from a few cases that spurred prominent media frenzy over the years, which I believe is representative of nothing.
How do you know what my impression is based on?
Quote:FreeDuck wrote:We should not be so willing to believe it.
Why should we be more willing to assume that the guilt lies with a total stranger? There is no proof, far as we know, for either scenario, and in general initially mysterious child deaths as often as not involve the parents. So why would it be OK to be willing to believe someone else did it, as you apparently do, but not to be willing to believe the parents might have done it?
1) You don't know that she's dead (though it's probably a safe assumption) and/or how she died. 2) As has been pretty well laid out in this thread more than once, it's unlikely that the parents killed her due to lack of motive, opportunity and evidence. 3) I hold out the possibility that the parents could have done it, but I think it more likely that she was abducted by a stranger due to (2).
Quote:Even now, there are as many readers and listeners ardently defending the parents than there are sceptics - even though neither side actually has any evidence to go on.
But a lack of evidence points to innocence. The evidence for her being abducted is the fact that she's gone and not been found. And while you may just be a sceptic (whenever I see it spelled that way I think of a sewage system) others are sharpening their pitchforks and lighting their torches. Personally, I'm also a skeptic. I'm skeptical of the reports of evidence that always seem to evaporate upon closer scrutiny.
Lack of evidence points to innocence.
My new signature line...Thanks freeduck.
The media involvement in this case is particularly interesting to me (once again, I dream of a media forum at A2K for this sort of discussison).
One of our local editorial writers has commented on it recently
Quote:Many people, not just the McCann family's friends and relatives, would be immensely relieved if this individual turns out to be the culprit. The tot would still be dead, her body likely never to be recovered, but the revolting scenario of parental involvement in the vanishing - creeping suspicions of an orchestrated cover-up afoot - would be removed.
So far, however, the implication appears largely media-generated, clearly tipped to that theory by a well-organized campaign - including high-priced professionals - from inside "Team McCann." Portuguese police say the man has been identified and interviewed. He's not been fingered as a suspect.
<snip>
Quote:Police have also embarked on new interviews with friends who vacationed with the McCanns and others who'd observed the family. There are apparently a number of inconsistencies, with some claiming Kate McCann had been violent and "out of control" with her kids, exhausted from tending to them while her husband relaxed.
Given the couple's palpable pain, criticism had been muted even for their acknowledged and tragic lapse - leaving the sleeping children unattended while they dined with friends, despite the fact their hotel offered sitter service, checking at intervals, the suite unlocked.
It's taken a very long time for Kate and Gerry McCann to arrive where most other parents of missing children would automatically find themselves - were they maybe not quite so attractive, so much of the professional class, so sympathetic and so ... white.
I would have added "blonde".
The media campaign by the McCanns has been interesting to watch.
rosie di manno
FreeDuck wrote:Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, indeed I don't know about two doctors who stayed in a foreign country on holidays etc.
How about give me a rough summary of a case that comes to your mind which is similar to this one. For more details about what I'm referring to, since it seems to be that if I myself am more specific that means that I don't like the more general answer and am simply moving the goal post, you could look at Chai's post several pages back.
I do not understand why you are challenging Walter on this, Freeduck. If you look at Walter's entire comment, he indicates no two cases are ever alike:
Quote:Well, indeed I don't know about two doctors who stayed in a foreign country on holidays etc.
I mean, it really is nearly impossible to find two nearly identical cases in criminal law.
(That's why criminal law [here] should cover all possibilties - as an aside.)
There are apparently a number of inconsistencies, with some claiming Kate McCann had been violent and "out of control" with her kids, exhausted from tending to them while her husband relaxed.
I'd like to see specific examples of what this "Violent and out of control" means.
Did some see Kate McCann screaming obscenities at her children at the top of her lungs, and beating them about the head?
Or, did they see Kate McCann say loudly to her children "I have told you a dozen times to get away from the edge of that pool!" and walk over and give a child a swat on the hiney?
Or, was it one of 5 billion other things, about the same as the number of people on this planet?
Does anyone know what is behind that statement?
just though I'd emphasise this as its exactly what I've been saying for weeks
Quote:The couple, who strenuously deny any involvement in their daughter's disappearance, are concerned that Portuguese detectives are attempting to frame them for Madeleine's death. The police have been heavily criticised for failing to find any evidence of Madeleine's fate and have been under intense political pressure from Lisbon and Westminster to solve the case which has damaged the Algarve's reputation as a safe family destination.
The couple's legal team are scouring Portuguese newspapers in an attempt to prove that the police have waged a "black propaganda" campaign. Clarence Mitchell, the couple's spokesman, hopes that the legal team will be able to prove that the reports show the couple have been "set up".
[/b]
political pressure? surely not. Damaged the tourist industry? Black propaganda? Set up? So who's talking conspiracy now?
Steve 41oo wrote:just though I'd emphasise this as its exactly what I've been saying for weeks
Quote:The couple, who strenuously deny any involvement in their daughter's disappearance, are concerned that Portuguese detectives are attempting to frame them for Madeleine's death. The police have been heavily criticised for failing to find any evidence of Madeleine's fate and have been under intense political pressure from Lisbon and Westminster to solve the case which has damaged the Algarve's reputation as a safe family destination.
The couple's legal team are scouring Portuguese newspapers in an attempt to prove that the police have waged a "black propaganda" campaign. Clarence Mitchell, the couple's spokesman, hopes that the legal team will be able to prove that the reports show the couple have been "set up".
[/b]
political pressure? surely not. Damaged the tourist industry? Black propaganda? Set up? So who's talking conspiracy now?
Who's talking conspiracy now? According to what you highlighted, Steve, the answer to your question is "the couple", "the couple's legal team", and "the couple's spokesman". Why do you ask?
I've been saying for weeks that the PJ have an agenda much more concerned with protecting the reputation of the Algarve than finding Madeleine. I'm merely pointing out that others think the same way.
Well, so what? Lots of others believe it's not true of the Portugese govt/police. What does that say? A big fat zero.
squinney wrote:I don't think they are guilty. This is actually reminding me more of the college girl that went missing in the tropics. The cops had to come up with something, someone... The media was putting a lot of pressure on them to solve the case and they were clueless.
Can any parent here imagine the horror of losing a child? Can anyone then imagine being accused around the entire world of having murdered their own child? And, imagine being the parents and there's no body. You don't even know that she is dead. Is she suffering somewhere and crying for Mommy? That goes beyond any pain I can imagine. I'd be totally beserk by now.
Having it played out in the media that I'm a suspect would put me over the top.
Yeah, how about that woman with the child who was eaten by the dingo. I can't remember all the details or even what the result was, but there's a similar case of international attention and judging.
I had a list of questions earlier (I don't know how to go back and post it in the middle of this one) and they remain, in the main, unanswered.
It seems unlikely that a stranger would walk in to a populated area at night and abduct a child. It also seems unlikely that the parents would be able to sit and drink all night and then successfully hid a dead body, call the cops, and act normally (one would presume, not having heard to the contrary).
However, it is becoming more and more suspicious to me the more I hear. The 40 questions they 'refused' to answer, for one thing.
I am not judging or villifying them (even if they're guilty - who knows what their life was like), but I am speculating, like everyone else.
Funny how some of us get on one side or the other, with the same limited information
FreeDuck wrote:nimh wrote:And your impression of what constute "the typical examples" is still derived from a few cases that spurred prominent media frenzy over the years, which I believe is representative of nothing.
How do you know what my impression is based on?
Ehm, you have now a number of times talked of what "the typical" examples or cases are, and each time have used the past celebrity cases as reference, and have used only those as reference?
FreeDuck wrote:Quote:Why should we be more willing to assume that the guilt lies with a total stranger? There is no proof, far as we know, for either scenario, and in general initially mysterious child deaths as often as not involve the parents. So why would it be OK to be willing to believe someone else did it, as you apparently do, but not to be willing to believe the parents might have done it?
[..] 2) As has been pretty well laid out in this thread more than once, it's unlikely that the parents killed her due to lack of motive, opportunity and evidence.
Well, I'm glad to see that the thread participants have determined the questions of motive, opportunity and evidence re possible involvement of the parents. Someone tell the police that we know better than them.
Seriously. As of this moment, there is no evidence whatsoever on who was the perpetrator. All we know is that the kid's gone. That in itself tells us nothing of how or where the girl disappeared. Whether it was the parents or some total stranger who put/took her away, none of us know. There is no evidence of any strangers' involvement that we know of, and no evidence that we know about reliably of the parents' involvement.
Which brings me back to my question: why would it be perfectly OK to believe a stranger did it, but wrong to believe the parents could have done it? When there is no evidence for either?
Mame wrote:It seems unlikely that a stranger would walk in to a populated area at night and abduct a child. It also seems unlikely that the parents would be able to sit and drink all night and then successfully hid a dead body, call the cops, and act normally (one would presume, not having heard to the contrary).
Exactly. Both things are very hard to believe, and yet one of the two things must have happened. All we spectators can do is speculate, and make our own instinctive calls on what's more likely to be the background of this kind of thing.
Nobody is in court. Neither are the McCanns being declared proven guilty, nor are we bound to refuse to countenance the possibility that they could be guilty until there's decisive evidence. We can call 'em like we sees 'm, one way or the other, and thats all we can do.
And in the end, it would probably be better if we werent all doing a running commentary on it at all.
Maybe the little girl woke up after her parents went out and when she discovered they weren't there, she too decided to leave and was then abducted out on the street.
Miller wrote:Maybe the little girl woke up after her parents went out and when she discovered they weren't there, she too decided to leave and was then abducted out on the street.
Or,
- She woke up, went to the mirror and decided to pass through it..
- She woke up, went out and was abducted by a gigantic flying raptor (pterosaur) and she is now living in a lost valley with other abducted kids from all aroud the world.
- She woke up and was abducted by a mischivious ogre who took her to a dark forest, from where a charming prince will free her in a hundred years.
I've some more in stock...
Jeez!
