Mame wrote:
I would also like to say 14 bottles of wine between 9 people over dinner is at least 1 bottle each... not exactly a sober state for anyone looking after kiddies...although, to be fair, we don't know who drank what, do we?
Consumed by a group of people during the course of an afternoon and evening.
This is quite outrageous. None of the above is "evidence" of a crime. None of it, if it is "evidence" should be in the public domain. There is a proper place to present evidence, thats not through leaks to the press but in a court of law. The McCanns have to take all this **** on top of losing their daughter. I defy anyone who saw Gerry McCann give a brief statement to the press at East Midlands airport to say he was lying.
Steve 41oo wrote:This is quite outrageous. None of the above is "evidence" of a crime. None of it, if it is "evidence" should be in the public domain. There is a proper place to present evidence, thats not through leaks to the press but in a court of law.
I agree.
But don't ask me to post your questions where YOU wanted to lnow something about the
investigation etc, which couldn't and can't be made public by law (both Portuguese as well as English, as far as I could find out).
All what is published as "evidence" is speculation by some media - from "usually well informed sources" or similar.
Steve 41oo wrote:The UK has better forensic dna analysis than Portugal, what I would like to know is who gathered together the hair samples and body fluid and was it really from a car the mccanns had not hired yet or was it from the bedroom and planted in it?
Dop you know the reputation or non-reputation of some?
Are you questioning the same when DC Smith and DS Miller from Essex Police, Crime Divison, Forensic Intelligence Unit is doing this AND when they ask the very same Forensic Science Service in Birmingham?
And when you ask the same questions, do you get the answers to them? From whom? Chief Constable Roger Baker? Sir Ronnie Flanagan, the Home Secretary's senior professional advisor on policing and HM Chief Inspector of Constabulary? The Daily Mail or Sun?
Apparently the bodily fluids were found under the carpet in the boot/trunk of the car.
Steve, you're getting awfully defensive. I'm not saying they did anything wrong, and I don't see others doing that either. We're just sharing the news we're getting and commenting on what we feel is their negligence in leaving three children under the age of 4 alone for several hours, with periodic checks. I feel that this is negligence, you obviously do not. It's simply a matter of opinion.
I don't know if they over-medicated their kid and then disposed of her body. This is just what it is seeming to boil down to from the reports.
And yeah, 14 bottles of wine IS a lot, when you're responsible for three toddlers. Like I said, I don't know who drank what, but what was going on with the kids for the afternoon and evening? Were they periodically checking on them all day long? Did they have a sitter? Were they at the table?
I suppose that were exactly the questions the police was asking.
It is a bit suspecious: it appears the McCanns and their friends agree that Gerry McCann checked at 9.05pm, their friend Matthew Oldfield at 9.30pm (but he did not actually go into Madeleine's bedroom) and then Kate McCann at 10pm.
Suspecious only when you don't have other suspects.
Or when the parents are drug users, known "bad people" etc - then investigations go the other way around: at first the parents, then might be someone else.
What kind of drugs were the McCanns known to use Walter?
Steve, I can see your point, and you may be correct - but your feelings on this (and apparently of many British - I read that somewhere) don't make me just say, yep, I agree, that's it.
Or it may be complex - there is a community urge to get this tempest out of the tourist area, and something else is or is not going on.
I just finished that Robert Wilson book, A Small Death in Lisbon, and do recommend it. I learned a lot in the reading, at least from the author's take, on Salazar, the British and the Nazis, and the police, even though it is a work of fiction. Not that you don't know all that background already, or Walter doesn't, but that it was new to me. If there has been a present police tendency to thuggery (not that we don't have that in the US) that certainly is complicating.
On our a2k community differences on just how understandable or horrible leaving the children was, I remember seeing a graphic of the resort area, probably on this thread, but maybe not. I forget the number of feet away, as accounts have varied, but from the graphic, the view wasn't clear to the apartment. I seem to remember it as equivalent to a short city block. The lack of visibility makes it worse for me, though even if the entry to the apartment was visible, it's normal in my melieu for parents to trade off staying with the kids, or get a sitter, whatever the law says, or however it is applied.) I can't imagine leaving them alone in an apartment, though I can imagine wanting to, and, as Miller said, fairly tangentially, needing to. Assuming the parents are innocent of physical involvement in the girl's death, if she has died, which we don't know, they will be, I assume, sorry forevermore.
Steve 41oo wrote:The UK has better forensic dna analysis than Portugal, what I would like to know is who gathered together the hair samples and body fluid and was it really from a car the mccanns had not hired yet or was it from the bedroom and planted in it?
I did some research, but couldn't find the names. However, most British media (here especially the Sun and The Express) cheered up
- that British detectives were "finally" to be involved.
And when they found traces of blood, these were sent back to Britain for DNA analysis.
I could imagine from my own expeiences with police investigation that Portuguese police aided them, even worked with them.
But certainly you may contimue to believe that Portugal is Europe's banana republic and not to be trusted, the police there are divers and cheat like that Cristiano Ronaldo.
In addition, were not "sniffing dogs" supplied by the British police in July when the rental car evidence was found? With British input in the investigation, I do not see why there are conspiracy theories about the Portugese police.
(Although there are unfair allegations being made about the 2 parents, it makes no sense to retaliate by making allegations against an entire country.)
Quote:they have discovered Madeleine was over-medicated (DNA results)...
There is NO way to determine an individual was medicated or over-medicated from a DNA profile analysis.
Lord...What total nonsense!
Quote:Mom has admitted that the twins have also been medicated...
Most young kids develop ear infections, usually can be treated with an antibiotic. Were the twins treated for ear/eye/Gi infections?
If so, these kids were normal..nothing perverse here.
Quote: the French newspaper France Soir reported, citing unnamed sources
An unnamed source? Why unnamed?
This is merely hearsay or plain old fashioned gossip,
not journalism.
MAME QUOTE:
Quote:If there are 10 kids, then one of them is at least 10 yrs old
Have you ever heard of LOGIC?
Your post is totally illogical if not totally idiotic.
Why all these arrows back and forth? None of us know anything.
DNA expert in McCann case offer
The couple deny any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance
Sir Alec Jeffreys
The inventor of DNA fingerprinting has offered to act as an expert witness in the Madeleine McCann case.
Sir Alec Jeffreys said DNA matches alone did not establish guilt and all Madeleine's genetic characters would be found in at least one family member.
Gerry and Kate McCann, suspects in their daughter's disappearance, are considering commissioning independent tests on a Portuguese hire car.
But the Madeleine's Fund board will not allow money to go on legal expenses.
It has been reported that DNA evidence with a 100% match to Madeleine was found in the car, but this has been played down by Portuguese police.
DNA doesn't have the words innocence or guilt in it
Sir Alec Jeffreys
In an exclusive interview with the BBC's Newsnight programme, Sir Alec said there could be a potential problem in assigning a profile to Madeleine given that all other members of her family would have been in the car.
"DNA testing seeks to establish whether DNA sample A from a crime scene, came or did not come from individual B," he said.
"So if you get a match there's very strong evidence that it did come from B.
"It is then up to investigators, the courts and all the rest of it to work out whether that connection is relevant or not.
"DNA doesn't have the words innocence or guilt in it - that is a legal concept. What it seeks to establish is connections and identifications."
'No doubts'
Earlier John McCann said his brother Gerry thought the Portuguese police had "gone up a cul-de-sac".
He told BBC's The One Show that Gerry had said they had "lost track" of what they were doing and urged the police to be straight with them.
"If they have got something that suggests Madeleine really is dead then for goodness sake tell the family who have the strongest feeling for this."
He added that had the police done a better job early on in the investigation then Gerry and Kate would not be suspects now.
Asked if he doubted their innocence at all, he said: "If you know the people, and you look at the whole situation, you look at it and think this is ridiculous."
Both parents deny vehemently any involvement in their four-year-old daughter's disappearance.
The McCann family were on holiday at a resort in Praia da Luz in the Algarve when they reported Madeleine missing from their apartment on 3 May.
They returned to their home in Rothley in Leicestershire at the weekend and are currently waiting for a judge to decide if they face charges.
It is understood the couple are planning their own forensic tests amid suspicion about claims made by detectives in interviews with Kate McCann.
BBC News
Madeleine McCann: 'No proof she was killed'
By Caroline Gammell in Praia da Luz
Last Updated: 1:21am BST 15/09/2007
Portuguese police appeared to take a step back from charging Madeleine McCann's parents last night after a senior officer said they had "nothing concrete" to implicate them in her disappearance.
Detectives may be depending on Kate and Gerry McCann making a confession, a Portuguese newspaper reported. They were declared formal suspects a week ago, and are now back in Britain.
A "high-ranking" officer in the Policia Judiciaria (PJ) - Portugal's criminal investigation department - said the evidence was not even strong enough to prove whether Madeleine was dead.
The unnamed PJ officer told the 24 Horas newspaper yesterday: "We have nothing concrete. There are a lot of indications, but without more elements it's impossible to determine what happened in those four vital hours [between 6pm and 10pm on the night of May 3, the night Madeleine disappeared].
"Even if the blood and traces gathered in the car or in the apartment were confirmed to correspond 100 per cent to the little girl's DNA, that wouldn't prove anything. . . just that the body had been transferred in the vehicle."
Portuguese newspapers claimed yesterday that police were investigating whether there was any possibility of "accomplices" in the alleged disposal of Madeleine's body and concoction of a false story.
It emerged that detectives want to re-interview some of the friends with whom the McCanns dined on May 3, to resolve certain alleged discrepancies in their versions of events.
Detectives have admitted that the girl's body may "no longer exist", according to the Diario de Noticias.
One theory is that her body was thrown out to sea in a bag weighted with stones, from a yacht, the paper claimed without specifying its source. The boat is allegedly based at a marina just a short drive from Praia da Luz, it reported.
It has also been claimed that the Forensic Science Service is examining alleged bloodstains from the apartment next to the McCanns'. Police believe they could hold the key to Madeleine's whereabouts after she vanished, the London Evening Standard said.
On Tuesday, the PJ formally passed a 4,000-page dossier of evidence to the Algarve-based public prosecutor.
The judge now has until next Thursday to consider several requests made by the prosecutor, including one for the seizure of Mrs McCann's personal diary, sources said.
Intense attention has focused on what police found in the hire car rented by Madeleine's parents 25 days after she went missing.
Senior sources linked to the investigation said police had discovered "bodily fluids" - not blood - with an 88 per cent match to Madeleine's DNA in the boot.
Toxicological tests on the liquid showed that Madeleine had consumed a "significant" quantity of sleeping tablets and may have overdosed, the French newspaper France Soir reported, citing unnamed sources in Portugal. British forensic science experts have cast doubt on the claim.
The McCanns spent yesterday with their lawyers, Kingsley Napley.
Mr McCann hit out at the "ludicrous accusations" that he and his wife were involved in their daughter's death. He said he and his wife knew they were innocent but were frightened and had been "backed into a corner".
Telegraph.co.uk
Quote:"Even if the blood and traces gathered in the car or in the apartment were confirmed to correspond 100 per cent to the little girl's DNA, that wouldn't prove anything. . . just that the body had been transferred in the vehicle.
The bodily fluid found in the car does not prove that the body had been in the car. It only proves that something containing human DNA had been in the car. It doesn't say ANYTHING about HOW the DNA had been deposited in the car and moreover, it does not prove the DNA came from the child, and not a close relative.
Well I'm glad you've cleared that up.
