SHOULD SEN. LARRY CRAIG RESIGN?

Public toilets have no "private areas" per se. However, the laws cover intruding on someone else's privacy in a sexually suggestive way. The officer knew those are signals as a suggestion for welcoming someone into your stall. The ignorant, and, yes, stupid notion that it will never be a plainclothesman is tantamount to believing the moon is going to turn blue.
I have no doubt an attorney could likely approach the individual privacy slant but it could backfire. The idea is to infer as much that there was entrapment involved as possible even if the officer has insisted he wasn't trying to entrap.
No matter what anyone construes that Craig's actions actually meant, it's too much like he's had enough practice on how to signal a pickup in a public toilet. Suggestion: make a date with a page and then kill him.

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I didn't say anything about entrapment, and doubt that this would work in this case.

You mention that Craig's actions were suggestive. They may be to another gay or a cop, but not to the ordinary straight man. Thus, the latter should not be offended or damaged in any way.

I might mention that this Supreme Court would most likely come down in favor of the police, regardless of what the constitution says.

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parados wrote:

But without the constant rumors of Craig being gay, why would have had pled guilty? Why would it ruin his career to stand up if falsely accused? It is because of the rumors that he had reason to plead and hope it went away. The rumors also make it much more likely that he was doing what the police say he was.

Craig had almost 2 months to decide what to do. He made that decision without consulting anyone that we know of. That to me is a man embarrassed by his own actions, not someone falsely accused but trying to make it go away without the public knowing.

He also is dealing with his shame, guilt and self-loathing at being a closeted gay or bi. He just could not face up to going into court to defend himself.

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He's also dealing with his wife. Would be interesting to know if she really believes him. If it's been an arrangement in their relationaship for years a la Cole Porter, it would not surprise me. It's still hard the shrug off the hypocrisy although having a holier than thou attitude to begin with has got one off to a bad start. I'm not in a position to pass judgement on him but his fellow Republicans sure are.

Yes on McCain and the S & L scandal -- there are still smudges of slime recognizable on his forehead.

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There is a pretty strong likelihood that the tortured Craig will now lose his wife. He will then eventually admit being gay, take a gay partner, and write his memoirs on being a highly-placed closeted gay.

This was the pattern followed about 20 years ago by a rising Rep congressman, whose name escapes me. His actions in congress were also strongly anti-gay, during a time when he regularly visited gay bars and bath houses.

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It's the "Advise and Consent" syndrome!

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===================================
Breaking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
===================================

AP reports Craig will announce resignation tomorrow.

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(Finally someone else mentioned Allan Drury and Advise and Consent... I did on another thread.)

I just read the Newsweek article on some of the background for this Craig episode.

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Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Let's be clear though - there's no allegedly to it. He did break the law. He pled guilty in court to doing so.

Some accusations -- even when wrongful -- can end someone's career if publicized. When somebody makes such an accusation against me, I may well plead guilty myself even if I'm not. I might just try to save my career by doing whatever I think most likely to keep the affair quiet. Roxxxanne may find this incomprehensible, and ehBeth may lose her respect for me, and you may insist that if I plead guilty I always am. Nevertheless, I can easily imagine situations where I would myself plead guilty when in fact I'm innocent. And Craig's is one of those situations.

Thomas you draw an entirely possible situation, however I don't believe this to be the case with Craig. The restroom in question was no where near Craig's gate and was known to be a meeting place for gays - hence the stakeout.

Be that as it may, if this was the case for Craig, he would have made it based upon his own judgment of what is most important to him. It is difficult to imagine an innocent man capitulating to a plea bargain, but I agree that under certain circumstances it is understandable -- such as copping a plea when a trusted attorney tells you that despite your innocense, you are going to lose at trial.

Of course that's not what happened here. Craig made the decision without legal advice, and in the sort of panic that is just hard to imagine in the case of an innocent man who understands the law and is a considerably powerful figure.

Still, even if he was innocent, he chose the hope (no guarantee was provided) that a plea would avoid a scandal that might bring him down politically over his sense of personal honor and justice. In some way understandable, but hardly admirable or worthy of sympathy.

In any case he made the chocie of pleading guilty and so set the cement of his fate. Innocent or not he can no longer effectively represent Idaho and should resign.

Assuming he was innocent, perhaps if he valued his integrity and the truth over his political power, he might not be in his current mess.

There is no rationalizing his failure to resign,

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parados wrote:

Craig had almost 2 months to decide what to do. He made that decision without consulting anyone that we know of. That to me is a man embarrassed by his own actions, not someone falsely accused but trying to make it go away without the public knowing.

Maybe he was afraid that if it had gone to trial, the prosecution would have found a boatload of others that had had liasons with him.
I doubt if the couple incidents mentioned in articles are the only times he's ever done this sort of thing. Let's be realistic.

Furthermore, why would the cop lie? There had to be some basis to the charges. We're not talking about a speeding ticket and quotas. The cop wasn't just picking a 62 year old man out the crowd and deciding to ruin his life!
We haven't heard one single thing about this cop being known for bad arrests. For that matter, we haven't heard anything at all about the cop, which leads me to believe it was a good bust.

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Roxxxanne wrote:

===================================
Breaking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
===================================

AP reports Craig will announce resignation tomorrow.

We knew that was coming.

I still wouldn't be surprised if his past partners start coming out of the woodwork.

I find it strange and sad that some people will risk everything for a an illicit quickie.

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Bob Bauman is the former gay congressman to whom I referred.

Although some inside the GOP insist that the entire upper strata of the Party is run by closeted homosexuals, they could be at least partially wrong. Scott McClellen is gone. And let's not even get into speculation about Rove (no matter how many gay men swear they know for sure) or the even more obvious Ken Mehlman. Look instead at how the GOP has made an effort of at least making themselves look less gay.

Former Maryland Congressman (and Chairman of the Conservative Union) Bob Bauman was arrested with a teenage boy's appendage in his mouth and he was forced to give up his political career (as well as his wife and his 4 children). Kentucky GOP heavyweight Bobby Stumbo was banished from his leadership in the party after he was arrested for molesting a 5 year old boy. Virginia Republican Congressman, a viciously anti-gay "family values" psychopath, resigned after he was caught soliciting for gay sex online. Sam Walls, a GOP Chairman and candidate for the Texas legislature withdrew from politics after pictures of him as a drag queen started surfacing. After right-wing Supreme Court nominee G Harrold Carswell was arrested for fondling the genitals of a police officer in a Tallahassee rest room in a shopping mall, Republicans stopped nominating him to the Supreme Court and settled on Scalia, Thomas, Roberts and Alito instead. After it surfaced that GOP homophobic closet case David Dreier was grossly over-paying his lover/Chief of "Staff," he was not permitted to replace Tom DeLay as House Majority Leader. Similarly the Florida Republican Party decided it would rather lose a chance to win a Senate seat with one-step-from-the-loony-bin Katherine Harris than allow homophobic gay closet queen Mark Foley to move from his House seat (FL-16) to the Senate. Jim Kolbe, gay Arizona congressional homophobe, is retiring from Congress. Right-wing pressure forced Louisiana self-loathing gay blade Jim McCrery to marry his secretary before allowing him to rise in the Congressional hierarchy. After Clarkfield, Minnesota's ex-mayor Jeffrey Kyle Randall served 9 months in jail for sexually molesting 2 young boys (10 and 12 years old), he stopped running for office. And after Utah Republican state legislator Brent Parker, an upsatnding Republican father of 6, was arrested for offering a policeman $20 for a little sodomy he was forced to resign. Oh-- and Washington State conservative kingpin/Spokane mayor Jim West... what a mess!

--from a blog

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"Several prominent Republicans are calling on Sen. Larry Craig to resign. And a couple are asking for his phone number." --David Letterman

"Sen. Larry Craig, who pled guilty to soliciting sex at an airport, is now being accused of having oral sex at a train station. When asked about it, Craig said, 'What can I say? I love public transportation.'" --Conan O'Brien

"Gay groups are calling Craig a hypocrite because Craig is a staunch opponent of gay marriage. Craig denied he's a hypocrite, saying, 'Hey, I wasn't trying to marry the cop in the bathroom.'" --Conan O'Brien

"Sen. Larry Craig said today yes he is gay, but he never inhaled." --Jay Leno

"See, I don't think his family was surprised by these revelations. In fact, today his wife said she first became suspicious because every time he had to use the bathroom, he would fly to Minneapolis." --Jay Leno

"How about that poor Senator Craig from Idaho? ... So he gets arrested in a men's room there at the airport in Minneapolis. And here's the deal now. He's now in Stage One of a political sex scandal: defiance. Stage Two: stepping down to spend more time with his family. Stage Three: 'I'm gay and I'm proud!'" --David Letterman

"Don't kid yourself, this Craig is in a tough spot. When you're up for re-election, you don't want to be known as 'The Restroom Don Juan.'" --David Letterman

"The guy was arrested for lewd behavior in the men's room, and I'm thinking, 'Well, hell. I'm lucky if I can get a hand dryer to blow'" --David Letterman

"Senator Larry Craig declared he won't quit and he's not gay. And then Craig said 'I'm sorry. I meant to say I won't quit being gay.'" --Conan O'Brien

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"See, I don't think his family was surprised by these revelations. In fact, today his wife said she first became suspicious because every time he had to use the bathroom, he would fly to Minneapolis." --Jay Leno

Ok, that one is hilarious....but, I feel sorry for his wife being the butt of a joke.

I want to laugh, but I hate myself for it. Confused

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happycat wrote:

"See, I don't think his family was surprised by these revelations. In fact, today his wife said she first became suspicious because every time he had to use the bathroom, he would fly to Minneapolis." --Jay Leno

Ok, that one is hilarious....but, I feel sorry for his wife being the butt of a joke.

I want to laugh, but I hate myself for it.

I have the same feelings. However, it is hard to sympathize with this monumental hypocrite.

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Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Thomas wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Let's be clear though - there's no allegedly to it. He did break the law. He pled guilty in court to doing so.

Some accusations -- even when wrongful -- can end someone's career if publicized. When somebody makes such an accusation against me, I may well plead guilty myself even if I'm not. I might just try to save my career by doing whatever I think most likely to keep the affair quiet. Roxxxanne may find this incomprehensible, and ehBeth may lose her respect for me, and you may insist that if I plead guilty I always am. Nevertheless, I can easily imagine situations where I would myself plead guilty when in fact I'm innocent. And Craig's is one of those situations.

Thomas you draw an entirely possible situation, however I don't believe this to be the case with Craig. The restroom in question was no where near Craig's gate and was known to be a meeting place for gays - hence the stakeout.

Be that as it may, if this was the case for Craig, he would have made it based upon his own judgment of what is most important to him. It is difficult to imagine an innocent man capitulating to a plea bargain, but I agree that under certain circumstances it is understandable -- such as copping a plea when a trusted attorney tells you that despite your innocense, you are going to lose at trial.

Of course that's not what happened here. Craig made the decision without legal advice, and in the sort of panic that is just hard to imagine in the case of an innocent man who understands the law and is a considerably powerful figure.

Still, even if he was innocent, he chose the hope (no guarantee was provided) that a plea would avoid a scandal that might bring him down politically over his sense of personal honor and justice. In some way understandable, but hardly admirable or worthy of sympathy.

In any case he made the chocie of pleading guilty and so set the cement of his fate. Innocent or not he can no longer effectively represent Idaho and should resign.

Assuming he was innocent, perhaps if he valued his integrity and the truth over his political power, he might not be in his current mess.

There is no rationalizing his failure to resign,

My first post on this bizarre and weird event. I agree with Finn. Whatever Craig is, he is either guilty or stupid, almost assuredly the former and probably both, and we don't need either one in Congress. This has to be the weirdest thing I have ever heard of in my lifetime. This sort of stuff going on in airports is totally unheard of to me until now. How a man could allow himself to become involved in something that weird and stupid is beyond me, we don't need it, but I also can't help but feel sorry for him and his family, but only to a point. He has to go, and the appointed Republican has to be as good or better. If this had never happened, and this man had continued in office, he would have continued in a compromised way, probably fearing to cross any political group that might have the goods on him. And so his votes in Congress would be watered down, without conviction, and essentially worthless. So the sooner he leaves the better.

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Okie, what about McCain and the other Rep thieves? Do they have to go, also?

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I am not a fan of McCain. I would need to review that case. Was that the Keating 5 or whatever?

Anyway, while Republicans clean house, how about getting rid of Ted Kennedy, Barney Frank, William Jefferson, Harry Reid, and other bad actors. After all, Frank had a male prostitution operation going out of his house, Kennedy drowned a woman, Reid's questionable land deals and how many sons are lobbyists to bring home the bacon to Nevada, and we all know about Jeffersons money in the freezer. Alot longer list could be compiled, but all you guys do is re-elect your characters. Now don't tell me all of yours are squeaky clean. Don't try it, Advocate, you only make a fool of yourself.

Oh, I should mention Jerry Studds, or whatever name, that was alot worse than tapping your foot in a restroom stall. He was re-elected how many times and given a standing O by his fellow Dems.

By the way, where is the drumbeat of fellow Dems for William Jefferson to step down? He is an obvious crook. Where is it? Instead he gets appointments in Congressional committees.

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I wonder how fast Republicans would be calling for his resignation if the Governor were a Dem and the resignation would result in the loss of a Senate seat.

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SHOULD SEN. LARRY CRAIG RESIGN?

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