married and started affair with an old flame....

Although it is unsettling how frequently anti-depressants are handed out, I would trust your Doctor Jake. If your doctor did a complete evaluation and believes you are depressed, you will find it easier to make good decisions for yourself once the meds correct the depression. It's also important to understand that a lot of folks find they need their meds adjusted from time to time. That does not mean stronger or more meds, usually just different meds. I have several relatives dealing with depression and I can tell when they are off their meds or are taking them irregularly. It's not that they act crazy, they tend to get irritable and then spend way too much time sleeping. One relative gets really annoyed when I ask if he is still taking his meds......not because he thinks I'm nosy, but because he doesn't like the idea of meds and gets annoyed when I notice his mood change. One relative told me that the difference for her when she take the meds is that when she has to deal with a problem (and something is always coming in life) she immediately starts to think of how to solve the situation and before the meds her reaction would be to spend too much time thinking how unfair life was. So she describes her meds as making her feel more normal, not high or spaced out, just normal.

Divorce is difficult and is scarring, so I would advise you to stick with the counseling because the therapists (if they are any good at all) will ask the right questions and make you address your situation so that eventually you will not need to see the therapist. I know you didn't ask for my advice, and I hope I'm not offending you....but we all need help from time to time.

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I think getting together with Sally was a catalyst. I was unhappy. I think I drifted away from my wife and was not man enough to go to her and try to fix it.

I made a decision to carry my relationship with Sally too far. Even with the logic staring me in the face. I chose to walk away from my marriage.

At this point, the damage is irreparable. There was a point earlier on at which I could have tried to save my marriage. I chose not to. I didn't think I could stay in the marriage because I cannot be honest. I cannot be trusted.

You describe exactly what I thought my ex went through but he kept blaming me and making justifications for his actions. That really hurt me and in turn hurt our family. Because he chose to not talk to me and chose to not work things out he chose to see his kids on a part-time basis. I just felt that my kids deserved better. But my ex did me a favor because he wasn't honest and just didn't love me.
He actually went far enough at one point to say that he blamed my family for the way I was raised. I was the youngest of 6, my mom didn't graduate high school and my dad worked two jobs to support us. He was the younger of two with both parents working. Obviously everyone is raised differently, I'm just not sure what he meant by that.
As far as this being a choiceful decision, he claimed that we simply just grew apart. My argument to that was that he was the one that grew apart, I was still interested in keeping my family together.
But life goes on, people grow.

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Quote:

You describe exactly what I thought my ex went through but he kept blaming me and making justifications for his actions. That really hurt me and in turn hurt our family. Because he chose to not talk to me and chose to not work things out he chose to see his kids on a part-time basis. I just felt that my kids deserved better. But my ex did me a favor because he wasn't honest and just didn't love me.
He actually went far enough at one point to say that he blamed my family for the way I was raised. I was the youngest of 6, my mom didn't graduate high school and my dad worked two jobs to support us. He was the younger of two with both parents working. Obviously everyone is raised differently, I'm just not sure what he meant by that.
As far as this being a choiceful decision, he claimed that we simply just grew apart. My argument to that was that he was the one that grew apart, I was still interested in keeping my family together.
But life goes on, people grow.

I can offer you this insight:

I am still living in the house with my wife and kids. I sleep on the couch. I'm there until I get a second job and can cover rent and continue to pay the mortgage, etc.

In the meantime, my wife and I have discussions and arguments. It usually starts with her drinking and then berating me. I usually just listen, because I cannot defend the indefensible. But often I find myself trying to argue back and pointing out things I've been dissatisfied with in the marriage. Then I realize I am trying to put blame on her when it is not due.

If I keep my mouth shut and let her have her tirade, she will eventually bring up that I am just like my father. Silent. She can't get anything out of me because I am shutting her out. So, if I'm silent, that is a sign of my failings as a man. If I respond, whatever I say adds fuel to her fire.

I have wronged my wife and I have wronged my family. At this point, even if I wanted to try and reconcile, I could not.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't know anything about your ex. I am learning to know myself though. And when I try and argue back, I am grasping at straws just to have something to say. So it comes out as blaming her for things. I've been a good father to my children. I have been a crappy husband to my wife.

Understand that when these arguments take place, it usually starts around 9:30 - 10:00 p.m. She will keep going and going. I try and lay down to sleep because I have to get up very early in the morning and she is in my face and keeps going and going. When I turn away from her, she says I'm being like my father and running away when it gets tough.

I know I created this mess. I deserve everything I am getting. But I still need to find a way to rebuild myself and become a better man.

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I'm sorry that both of you are going through this. In time it will get easier to cope. Believe me, its true. I'm sure she is lashing out at you right now because she is hurting. Even though it's difficult for you to be listening to her tirade, just understand how hurt she is. It will get better.

What I don't understand is though(again this is more about my past experience) is, are you sure that you don't wantto make the choice to get counseling both seperate and together to try to mend this and make it work?

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What I don't understand is though(again this is more about my past experience) is, are you sure that you don't wantto make the choice to get counseling both seperate and together to try to mend this and make it work?

That is something I must think long and hard about. I'm sorry I don't have a straight answer for you. My head and my heart have not come together on that.

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Red flag, red flag, red flag. No one deserves a lecture from someone who is drinking. The drunk is temporarily nuts, and in no position to point out someone else's flaws. I don't think you should try to respond to her because if she is getting lit up, it will just escalate. Frankly, a good mom will not be drinking late at night because she has children to think about. This is not a good sign.......I can only suggest that you refrain from drinking with her because at least one of you will be sober in case of an emergency. Can you put a futon or cot in the kids bedroom????? Maybe she would be less inclined to berate you in front of the kids?

Although you may not be able to salvage your marriage, you should bring this up with your therapist. Maybe even ask her to come, but this drinking to the point of anger isn't good for you and is even worse for the kids. Frankly, it could be a risk for your children especially if she starts to self-medicate with booze to sooth her anger after you move out.

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Right now it would be easiest for everyone involved for you to move out. It's not fair to her that you have expressed your desire to get out of the marriage and then be there in her presence. She needs to heal just as much as you. Don't you agree?

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Marty,
I can feel how painful your divorce must have been. I have been divorced and understand how you feel......but this man is talking about abusive treatment from a drunken spouse. This might not be the reason they drifted apart, but it is extremely disturbing to me, since I used to live with an alcoholic. During one of his drunken sprees he threatened to kill me and my young son......I didn't put much stock in it until he whipped out the M-16 that I thought was stored in the attic. I don't like to think about that very much, but it was the time in my marriage that I realized I couldn't live like that anymore.

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Quote:

Although you may not be able to salvage your marriage, you should bring this up with your therapist. Maybe even ask her to come, but this drinking to the point of anger isn't good for you and is even worse for the kids. Frankly, it could be a risk for your children especially if she starts to self-medicate with booze to sooth her anger after you move out.

My wife has her own counselor. She was told not to drink because of her medication. She says she's been having nightmares and they don't come when she drinks. So she's been drinking anyway. I am not trying to paint my wife as an irresponsible drunk. She is a good mom.

She is hurting and angry. She is right to be so. This pattern concerns me. I am not without compassion and I do care about her well-being.

martybarker wrote:

Right now it would be easiest for everyone involved for you to move out. It's not fair to her that you have expressed your desire to get out of the marriage and then be there in her presence. She needs to heal just as much as you. Don't you agree?

I agree 100%. I am trying to come up with a way to get my own place. I don't know how, but I will do it. I'm looking into a second job. And she is looking for a job. Right this moment, though, I'm kind of stuck.

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I can only suggest that you refrain from drinking with her because at least one of you will be sober in case of an emergency.

I have not been drinking with her since I started my meds. except for last weekend when the kid's were staying at their aunt's.

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I agree with glitterbag and think you should NOT move out. You have
small children to consider here, and right now, the situation with a drinking
Mom is not a very good one. What if she drinks even more while you're
gone?

Marty, every marriage is different, and I can sympathize with your
situation, but I feel you're making Jake the scapegoat for something that
is entirely different to your own situation. Don't project your marriage
break-up into other marriages.

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Jake, I understand that your wife is upset but I also know that when people want to drink they will say almost anything to get permission for the drinking. If she is having nightmares (which is another thing she is blaming you for) she should ask her doctor to change her meds. Please don't buy into this excuse. I enjoy wine and spirits, and I'm sure she is a great mother when she isn't drinking.....but she is engaging in risky behaviour if she argues with you while drinking especially if she escalates, especially if the kids can hear. She will not stop having nightmares once you leave, and you should talk this over with your counselor, hopefully he/she will have some suggestions for you. I'm no counselor, just the survivor of a nightmare of a marriage, and when my husband drank (and he would drink even if I was at work and he was watching my son) bad things happened because he did not drink in moderation.

You can kick yourself all you want about what a jerk you think you are, but you will never forgive yourself if your wife does something dangerous that harms your children. Please think about this, your children have no control over the situation. I understand how your wife might feel but drinking and getting furious puts everyone at risk.

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Quote:

Marty, every marriage is different, and I can sympathize with your
situation, but I feel you're making Jake the scapegoat for something that
is entirely different to your own situation. Don't project your marriage
break-up into other marriages.

Fair enough.

Jake, thank you for you patience and insight. You really helped me understand some things a little better.

Best wishes to you and your family

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Thank you to everyone.

We'll get through this. I am getting the help I need. Help I've needed for many years, but denied it.

I am trying to learn how to be honest and trustworthy again. In ways, it's easier to do that on a message board with strangers than it is face-to-face with people I know and care about. But this helps me to organize my own thoughts so I can bring them face-to-face to people I know.

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That's what I love so much about A2K. People here know how to put things in perspective :-)

I have a great deal of respect for people who strive to better themselves, so I hope everything works out for you Jake.

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martybarker wrote:

Quote:
Marty, every marriage is different, and I can sympathize with your
situation, but I feel you're making Jake the scapegoat for something that
is entirely different to your own situation. Don't project your marriage
break-up into other marriages.

Fair enough.

Jake, thank you for you patience and insight. You really helped me understand some things a little better.

Best wishes to you and your family

I have been thinking about this for a bit. I just want to say that my intentions were not to make Jake a scapegoat but hopefully to learn something here. This is an open forum and Jake is going through something that other people have gone through. I happened to be on the other end of this and have been trying for a while to understand what happened to my marriage. I know no two marriages are the same and that Jake is not the same as my ex. They may have experienced similar feelings and it helped me to hear his side of things.
Jake, I'm sorry if I made things about me. Thank you for being honest and sharing your feelings here. I hope things are going better for both you and your wife. This isn't easy for either of you I'm sure.

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I don't feel I've been made a scapegoat. And I don't feel you've made this about you, Marty.

This whole thing is something I'd never imagined myself experiencing. I'd always seen affairs and divorce from the outside looking in.

I know it doesn't wash when someone says, "It just happened. I didn't intend to have an afair." I will say that for me, it just happened so fast and I made poor decisions based on intense emotions. Before I knew it, I had carried things too far.

Instead of pulling back from Sally and examining my feelings about my marriage, I focused on my feelings for her and moving toward her.

So pretty much what everyone had said earlier in this thread is coming true. I did the wrong thing by re-starting this relationship with Sally before facing the problems in my marriage. Yet if I had not done this, I don't know that I would have had the self-awareness to know there was something to confront. I would have plodded along accepting the way things were. But we would have continued to drift apart and some other major crisis would have to arise to get my attention.

I don't know if that makes sense or not. I just know that my actions have caused a great deal of devastation for everyone involved.

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Marty, I based that solely on the advice you've given Jake here

Quote:

Right now it would be easiest for everyone involved for you to move out. It's not fair to her that you have expressed your desire to get out of the marriage and then be there in her presence. She needs to heal just as much as you. Don't you agree?

I don't think you had considered his situation with 2 small children and
a drinking wife.

I am certain that Jake will benefit from hearing your side of the story
as you're on the opposite end, Marty, however when it comes to giving advise, you are probably too close to your own situation and not objective
enough.

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I'm of a couple of minds here...

Jake and his wife still living in the same house is HARD, on both of them. It's difficult to pick up the pieces on your life and move on, while in the same house. Yeah, hearing that his wife gets drunk and verbally abuses him, disturbs me. She is so angry and hurt. How can anyone expect her to get herself together, while the man that betrayed her is still living there?

And Jake, being in the situation where he either has to take it and keep quiet, then getting into more trouble because he's "silent". Or him speaking up for himself, defending himself when he knows he made a mistake. It's like he's being punished over and over again. It's a no win.

This situation sounds impossible for the two of them. It's not right and I don't see it getting better while they remain in the same house. Sounds like they have both said everything there is to say right now... Now it's just her, angry and bitter, and Jake, made to feel miserable. Neither can get on with their lives in a healthy way....

Then, there's the kids. Ahhhh, that's where I get stuck. No, no one wants their kids in a bad situation. But they are right now. They are living in the middle of a hurt, angry and guilty battlefield.

Jake, Can you try to talk to your wife about her drinking? About how the two of you can't live in the same house, but you are worried about leaving them alone with her if she keeps drinking...

This needs to be about the kids. Both of you are going through so much right now. But, the kids need to come first. And the two of you need to pull yourselves out of your abysses enough to realize that and find a way to work things out for the best interests of the kids. No matter what the emotional upheaval and turmoil, you both are still the parents and it's still your job to see that the kids are okay.

In this one area, it would be great for everyone involved, if you can work together.

(Speaking from the experience of being with a man who has an insane Ex and two teenagers... )

Marty, sometimes not getting an answer, is an answer. And sometimes you have to live with never understanding. It's okay. You're okay, you know what I mean?

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And answers can evanesce, even if you figure them out for a while.

On Jake's situation, I'm mixed re the staying and going the minute he can afford to, as well. I don't know that we can tell from here that she is some dangerous-to-children drunk. I get that she has done this riot act with Jake a few times, with alcohol fuel, and I'm not unsympathetic to explosive verbalizing rants. Not that I think they're so smart, but I'm not aghast. I don't have any clues that she is anything but good to the children. I don't think I'm the one to judge from here, at least without a lot more data, which is not my business. (Naturally, counseling for both..) Jake said she is a good mother and at this point I don't disbelieve him.

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married and started affair with an old flame....

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