Stripper as a wife.

Bella Dea wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
I just found "the mental state of most strippers is less than stable" to be a pretty damning statement.

Ok woulds it make you feel better if I'd said "the mental state of most strippers I've known or met is less than stable"?

YES!

Either you get it, or you have accidentally stumbled upon the point.

It may seem like you're saying the same thing to you, but trust me, it's a helluva important distinction. It's the difference between an honest statement and a sweeping generalisation.

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Oh God there's ten pages between the two posts I just responded to. Fuhgeddaboutit.

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ok ok ok ONE last thing, honest to God.. (and no its not in re to Chai or Bella, dont worry:)

kickycan wrote:

The problem with that is you seem to think they make this choice much the same way someone decides to become a welder or a burger flipper. [..]

How many girls in good high schools do you think want to be strippers when they get out of school? If you are being honest, I submit that the answer can only be "very few, if any at all." Why do you think that is?

The girl I knew specifically chose to try stripping because she found it less degrading than the job flipping burgers at McDonalds she'd ended up with.

Being on stage and being desired, for whatever base or lurid reasons, vs just being treated like **** non-stop by people who dont give a F about you but whom you still have to smile and say "Have a nice day" to ... seemed like a rational choice to her.

And yes, of course, soon as she could get anything better than either of that, she did. But in that situation, choosing the stripper option didnt mean she was a f-d up brainless crack ho, or however Slappy puts it.

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The crack whore was a stripper I knew.

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OGIONIK wrote:

most people hates work, some people like work.

stripping is work too. they get paid to do something they shouldnt "like" doing, taking off their clothes in front of strangers.Most strippers are extremely intelligent, good conversationalists, and most importantly, THEY LIKE EASY MONEY LIKE THE REST OF US!

If a husband of a stripper suddenly wants her to change careers, hes a dumbass.

The only problems i see with marrying a stripper are self-imposed moral beliefs that being naked in front of strangers is "bad".

Strippers are some of the most confident woman i know, they know how to get what they want, and they know what they want. Id feel more likely to be cheated on by an ugly female than a stripper. So if marriage was a goal in my life id be perfectly happy if the one i wanted was working as a stripper.

What??? Most strippers I know are alcoholics and/or drug addicts, and many engage in the more lurid aspects of the sex trade. Most have low self-esteem. In what way, do you know strippers? BTW would you want to marry a lesbian?

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Welcome to the discussion, Roxanne.

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JPB wrote:

Stray Cat wrote:
Stripping involves an act of intimacy that would normally be reserved for a man and woman who share an actual relationship. A man that loves, cares about, respects and wants to protect the woman, and a woman who loves, cares about and trusts the man.

I keep reading this thought trying to pin down what it is about it that troubles me. Maybe it's the definition of what is 'normal'.

Or maybe it's the definition of intimacy? Stripping for your lover may be an act of intimacy, but stripping in a club is not. It's as public and impersonal as it gets.

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There have been scads of pages -- man, is this topic a well-traveled train wreck or what -- since I last looked in. Here are some more tidbits from what I posted (thanks DrewDad for some citing). The more I read about this, the more I see these women as Tom Joad in a g-string. Not a fount of desire or envy (that's laughable anyway), but as a fount of pity, as a person exploited and used by pretty much everyone.

http://www.albany.edu/scj/jcjpc/vol10is1/bernard.pdf

Page 2: "Many reasons have been cited as to why women become exotic dancers; however, the overriding motivation is to make money." Page 3: "Most research indicates that at some point a dancer has felt exploited by customers, management, or other dancers. The most common complaint from dancers is being portrayed as an object or instrument rather than a person (McCaghy and Skipper, 1969; Boles and Garbin, 1974). While dancers feel this exploitation, they also admit to exploiting their customers (Bell, Sloan, and Stickling, 1998). The dancers are using the customers for money. They sell the fantasy of sex but do not follow through with the act. One dancer commented that the customers are "suckers" for giving the dancers money just for their physical attraction (Bell, Sloan, and Stickling, 1998). Pasko (1999), though, maintains that dancers, in an attempt to acquire a tip or monetary reward, sell more than attractiveness and fantasy; they feign feelings of intimacy and emotional connectedness for their customers." Pages 3 - 4: "Male strippers often feel the same level of exploitation by the customers as female dancers; however, men are more in control of the audience than are women (Tewksbury, 1993). 4 / JCJPC 10 (1), Winter 2003 In other words, male dancers are able to maintain a sense of power even when being portrayed as sex objects, while females seem to lose this sense of power as soon as they come on the stage (Tewksbury, 1993). Thus, male dancers may not experience the same amount of humiliation and degradation as female dancers (Calhoun, Cannon, and Fischer, 1996)." Pages 4 - 5: "Our sampling frame, consisting of 33 clubs, was compiled from all the exotic dancing organizations in a large suburban area of Virginia (Appendix A). We included all clubs advertised .... Data for this project were obtained through a survey consisting of 91 questions. Roughly one-fourth of the questions were open-ended, and completion of the survey took an average of 25 minutes."
http://iambecauseweare.wordpress.com/2007/03/17/some-statistics-on-sex-work-and-sexual-assault/

"A study of exotic dancers found that 100% had been physically assaulted in the clubs where they were employed, with a prevalence ranging from 3-15 times over the course of their involvement in exotic dancing. Violence included physical assault, attempted vaginal penetration, attempted rape,and rape (Holsopple, 1999). In another study, 51.2% of women working as exotic dancers were threatened with a weapon (Raphael & Shapiro, 2004)."
http://www.ccv.org/downloads/pdf/Strip_club_study.pdf

Page 2: "Data for this research was obtained through interviews, a survey, and the researcher's participant observation while involved in stripping (Hamel 1993). Women in this study stripped in the local stripclubs in the Midwest metropolitan area where the researcher lives, in local nightclubs in the same area, in metropolitan and rural stripclubs and nightclubs across the United States, at private parties, in peep shows, and in saunas. The stripclubs featured a variety of attractions including topless dancing, nude dancing, table dancing, couch dancing, lap dancing, wall dancing, shower dancing, and bed dancing. In addition, some clubs had peepshows, female boxing and wrestling with customers, offered photographs of the dancers, or hired pornography models and actresses as headliners." Page 2: "The age of entry into stripping ranged from fifteen to twenty-three years old, with a mean age of eighteen years and ten months. The length of time the women in this study were involved in stripping ranged from three months to eighteen years with an average length of six years and seven months." Page 3: "One woman told how she loitered in and around urban stripclubs to pick up customers when she was fifteen and how her pimp eventually drove her to small town strip bars because those bars admitted her and hired her. Someone else got involved in stripping through an escort service for bachelor parties. Another young woman who went to a gentlemen's club to pick up her friend recounted her recruitment as an eighteen-year-old. She waited at the bar, was served alcohol, and the owner asked to check her I.D. Instead of censuring her for drinking, he told her she would make $1000 per week and pressured her to enter the amateur contest that night. She won the contest, $300, and worked there three weeks before being recruited into an escort service by a patron pimp. In a typical hiring scenario women respond in person to a newspaper ad promising big money, flexible hours, no experience necessary. As an audition the club manager asks the applicants to perform on amateur night or bikini night, both of which are particularly popular with customers who hope to see girl-next-door types rather than seasoned strippers. The manager will make a job offer based on physical attributes and number of women already on the schedule. Clubs portray the job requirements as very flexible. Women are told that they will not be forced to do anything they do not want to do, but clubs overbook women so they are forced to compete with each other, often gradually engaging in more explicit activities in order to earn tips (Cooke 1987)." Page 3: "Most strippers are hired to work as independent contractors rather than employees. Most strippers are not paid a wage (Mattson 1995), therefor their income is totally dependent on their compliance with customer demands in order to earn tips. More often than not, the strippers have to pay for the privilege of working at a club (Cooke 1987; Forsyth and Deshotels 1997; Prewitt 1989). The majority of clubs demand that women turn over 40 to 50 percent of their income for stage or couch rental and enforce a mandatory tip out to bouncers and disc jockeys (Enck and Preston 1988; Forsyth and Deshotels 1997). Usually a minimum shift quota is set and the women must turn over at least that quota amount. If a woman does not earn the quota and wants to continue working at the establishment, she owes the club and must pay off that shift's quota by adding it to the quota for the next shift she will work. The stripclubs may also derive income from promotional novelty items, kickbacks, door cover charges, beverage sales, prostitution, and capricious fines imposed on the women. As independent contractors, strippers are not entitled to file discrimination claims, receive workers' compensation, or unemployment benefits (Fischer 1996; Mattson 1995). Club owners are free from tax obligations and tort liability. Owners pay no Social Security, no health insurance, and no sick pay. Some club owners require strippers to sign agreements indicating that they are working as independent contractors and many clubs require women to sign a waiver of their right to sue the club for any reason." Page 4: "Some clubs do not provide seating in the dressing room and forbid smoking in that room, thus preventing strippers from taking a break. When a woman wants to sit down or smoke a cigarette, she must do so on the main floor with a customer. Clubs enforce these rules through fines (Cooke 1987; Enck and Preston 1988; Ronai 1992). Women are fined heavily by club management: $1 per minute for being late, as much as $100 for calling in sick, and other arbitrary amounts for "talking back" to customers or staff, using the telephone without permission, and touching stage mirrors. Women are fined for flashing, prostitution (Enck and Preston 1988), taking off their shoes, fighting with a customer, being late on stage, leaving the main floor before the DJ calls her off, not cashing in one dollar bills, profanity in music, being sick, not cleaning the dressing room, using baby oil on stage, dancing with her back to a customer (Enck and Preston 1988) and being touched by a customer. Despite the stripclub's representation of a dancing job as flexible, strippers attest that their relationship with the club becomes all consuming and everything associated with being a stripper interferes with living a normal life. [color=red]And despite the common perception that a woman can dance her way through school, many strippers report that their jobs take over their lives. Long and late hours, fatigue, drug and alcohol problems, and out of town bookings make it difficult to switch gears. Not only do the women spend a significant amount of their time in stripclubs, the activities and influences from the club environment permeate their personal lives and detrimentally effect their well-being. Although stripclubs are considered legal forms of entertainment, people not associated with the industry are unaware of the emotional (Peretti and O'Connor 1989; Ronai 1992), verbal (Mattson 1995; Ronai 1992), physical (Boles and Garbin 1974), and sexual abuse (Ciriello 1993; Ronai 1992) inherent in the industry[/color]. Despite claims from management that customers are prohibited from touching the women, this rule is consistently violated (Enck and Preston 1988; Forsyth and Deshotels 1997; Ronai and Ellis 1989; Thompson and Harred 1992). Furthermore, stripping usually involves prostitution (Boles and Garbin 1974; Forsyth and Deshotels 1997; Prewitt 1989; Ronai and Ellis 1989; Thompson and Harrod 1992)." Page 4: "Women describe their role in the stripclub as hostess, object, prostitute, therapist, and temporary girlfriend and say they are there to entertain and attract men and business for the owners." Page 5: "On stage, some women's thoughts wander, while others' focus on angry desperation. "I daydream about nothing in particular to pass the time of 12 minutes." "I'm thinking about how good I look in the mirrors and how good I feel in dance movements." "I tell myself to smile." "I think about getting high and that I am making money to get high." "I am giving these guys every chance to be decent, so that I don't have to be afraid of them." "I am filled with disdain for the customers who do not tip, but sit and watch and direct you to do things for no money." "I think of how cheap these f*ckers are, what bills I need to pay." Page 6: "[color=red]The greatest response to questions regarding preparation for work was "drink[/color]". Women drink while getting ready to go to work and they drink while doing their hair and make-up once in the dressing room. Women who work at nude juice bars that do not serve alcohol or at bars that do not allow women to buy their own drinks report that they stop at another bar on their way in and "get loaded". Between stage sets and private dances, women drink some more, clean themselves with washcloths or babywipes after performing on a dirty stage or being touched by a lot of men, apply deodorant, and perfume their breasts and genitals." Page 7: "[color=red]One hundred percent of the eighteen women in the survey report being physically abused in the stripclub[/color]. The physical abuse ranged from three to fifteen times with a mean of 7.7 occurrences over the course of their involvement in stripping. One hundred percent of the eighteen women in this study report sexual abuse in the stripclub. The sexual abuse ranged from two to nine occurrences with a mean of 4.4 occurrences over the course of their involvement in stripping. One hundred percent of the women report verbal harassment in the stripclub. The verbal abuse ranged from one to seven occurrences with a mean of 4.8 occurrences over the course of their involvement in stripping. One hundred percent of the women report being propositioned for prostitution. [color=red]Seventy eight percent of the women were stalked by someone associated with the stripclub with a range of one to seven incidents[/color]. Sixty one percent of the women report that someone associated with the stripclub has attempted to sexually assault her with a range of one to eleven attempts. Not only do women suffer the abuse they experience, all of women in the survey witnessed these things happen to other strippers in the clubs. The overwhelming trend for violence against women in stripclubs was committed by customers of the establishments. Stripclub owners, managers, assistant managers, and the staff of bartenders, music programmers or disc jockeys, bouncers, security guards, floorwalkers, doormen, and valet were significantly less involved in violence against the women. [color=red]According to the women in this study, almost all of the perpetrators suffered no consequence whatsoever for their actions[/color]." Page 8: "Customers spit on women, spray beer, and flick cigarettes at them. Strippers are pelted with ice, coins, trash, condoms, room keys, pornography, and golf balls. Men pitched a live guinea pig and a dead squirrel at two women in the survey. Some women have been hit with cans and bottles thrown from the audience. Customers pull women's hair, yank them by the arm or ankle, rip their costumes, and try to pull their costumes off. Women are commonly bitten, licked, slapped, punched, and pinched." Page 9: "Stripclub customers frequently grab women's breasts, buttocks, and genitals. [color=red]Customers often attempt and succeed at penetrating strippers vaginally and anally with their fingers, dollar bills, and bottles[/color]. Customers expose their penises, rub their penises on women, and masturbate in front of the women. Women in this study consistently connected lap dances to the sexual abuse they suffered in the club. "That's the first thing men try to do when they get close to you and always in a lap dance." Stripclub owners, managers, and staff also expect women to masturbate them and some have forced intercourse on strippers." Page 10: "[color=red]Customers, owners, managers, and staff alike engage in harassing name-calling[/color]. Women are continually called "c**t, "whore", "pussy", "slut", and "bitch". Women in this study charge that men in the stripclub called them other demeaning or degrading names like ugly, looser, fat, pregnant, boy, stupid, crack, slash, snatch, beaver, dog, dyke, lezzie, brown eye, hooters, junkie, crackhead, and ****. Forty four percent of the women report that men associated with the stripclub have threatened to hurt them physically. These women report from three to 150 threats during their involvement in stripping. Threats range from verbal threats of slaps, ass whippings, and rapes to physical postures of punching and back hand slapping. "When I wouldn't let a customer grab on me, he would call me a bitch and threaten to kick my ass or rape me." "When a customer grabs and the woman and the girl takes action, they threaten"." Page 11: "Men associated with stripclubs repeatedly attempt to contact the women against their wishes. Strippers are followed home and stalked by stripclub customers. Customers telephone, write letters, send gifts, and follow the women around against their wishes. Women recount stories of catching customers following them to fitness clubs, parks and lakes, day care centers, and even lesbian bars. They describe times when [color=red]customers have broken into their homes and taken underwear, hairbrushes, and family photographs. Women say that other customers have used their jobs at the telephone company or within the criminal justice system to target the women[/color]. The women complain that customers also have followed them home masturbating while driving in the next lane. Women who travel the strip circuit to rural areas report that customers and stripclub owners, managers, and staff alike follow women from city to city and state to state. Furthermore, local men in small towns harass the visiting women by calling and knocking on the doors of the motel rooms and have been caught peeping in the windows of strippers' motel rooms. [color=red]Twelve percent of the women who reported being followed to their cars further reported that they were robbed (5.6 %), beaten (11.1%), threatened with a weapon (5.6%), verbally sexually harassed (66.7%), and sexually assaulted (16.7%) by customers[/color]. A customer who claimed he was in love with the woman followed her to her car, called her a "f*cking c**t" and strangled her hard enough to cause lood to squirt from her neck." Page 12: "Only a minority of women report that they were asked to perform sexual acts on men associated with the stripclub in order to return to work (11% by owners); as a condition of being hired (11% by managers, 11% by owners); in order to continue working there (17% by owners); in order to get a better schedule (6% by owners); or for drugs (17% by customers, 11% by managers, 22% by owners, 11% by staff). A majority of the women, however, report they were asked to perform sexual acts on men associated with the stripclub for money (100% by customers, 6% by managers, 17% by owners, 11% by staff). Customers and pimps constantly proposition women (Boles and Garbin 1974; Forsyth and Deshotels 1997; Ronai 1992; Ronai and Ellis 1989). Fourteen (78%) women from the survey report they are propositioned for prostitution every day by customers, three (17%) every week, one (6 %) every year. [color=red]Women comment that customers ask them "Do you date?" all night long. "Infinitetoo many too count." Women say that prostitution is influenced and suggested by management. One woman new to stripping was dumbfounded at how little money she was making taking her clothes off, so she asked the manager for his advice on increasing tips. He suggested turning tricks and said he could help her set up dates. Management sets up tricks, says it is good for business, and obligates women to turn over money from prostitution to the club. Women say prostitution is promoted even though owners tell women they would be punished if they turn tricks. Some stripclubs are notorious for promoting prostitution. "You have to be a ?'ho to work there". Women disclosed that they were recruited into prostitution through stripping. Although the strip industry markets stripping as something other than prostitution, some women consider prostitution an extension of stripping and stripping a form of prostitution. Pimps season women first with stripping and then turn them out into brothels or escort services for more money. Tricks, sugar daddies, pimps, and drug dealers in the stripclub seek to engage women in prostitution. Another young woman said that soon after she became involved in stripping, a pimp who posed as a customer in the stripclub manipulated her into an escort service by promising that she could make more money in less time simply by accompanying businessmen to dinner. She agreed in order to feed her crack addiction and as her addiction increased she slid down from gentlemen's clubs to escort service to brothel to street and crack house prostitution. Not only are women in stripping pressured by customers to perform sexual acts on them, owners, managers, and staff pressure the women to perform sexual acts on them, their relatives and associates, on vice officers and police officers. Women explain the pressure could range from being coerced into dancing for the intended with an expectation to put on a real good show with special treatment, extra time, and sexual contact, to engaging in prostitution. Strippers, like other subordinates in workermanagement relationships, respond with obedience to directives from management and others with authority[/color] (McMahon 1989)." Page 14: "Women in this study report the best part of stripping to be the money. "The only part that keeps me there is the money". At the same time, women are trapped and disappointed by the money. "I hated itbut glad I had it at the time for the income." "Women are reduced to exposing genitals for $1 bills." "It pays the bills if we could pay bills another way we would." "The bar owners and management are exploitative, they steal money." "It's hard to get out because of the money." [color=red]With respect to the money strippers seek to earn, they in turn must pay out fines, kickbacks, 100% of their social security insurance and taxes, travel and hotel expenses, and the costs for costumes, tanning, and plastic surgery[/color]. Women report that they have to have the right attitude to make money (Ronai 1992). This ordinarily was described as being drunk, high or numb (Forsyth and Deshotels 1997). Others feel it required tolerance. "The ability to ignore customers for just being there." Most women say it is easier when the men are tipping regularly and when they do not have to interact with men intimately. Women acknowledge that strippers measure their worth according to the amount of tips they earn and that they want attention, acceptance, and approval from the customers because it brings money (Futterman 1992). Women in stripping feel it doesn't take much skill to be a stripper (Forsyth and Deshotels 1997; McCaghy and Skipper 1970). "It would be nice to say women need dance talent but it's not true." "Tits, pussy, and blonde hair is all it takes." Instead they referred to dissociation to abuse. "It takes a willingness to do itanybody can do it." "It takes somebody who can shut themselves off and be really fake." "the ability to take a lot of abuse." They state a stripper needs a good head on her shoulders, an open mind, guts, strength, and survival skills. They believe they need abuse counseling, a lifeline from the "outside world", and education about what's really going on. "Need to know they have options, that they aren't always going to be a ?'ho'." Women in stripping want a union to protect strippers, decent working conditions, fair treatment, and an end to cruelty by management. Lastly, strippers think that women and girls don't know what they are getting into when they first start dancing. "It's really harmful because it is so benign, so accepted." "Girls think they will have fun dancing and get paid, they have no idea they have to fight men's hands, and dicks, and tongues, and then fight for every f*cking dollar bill you earn." "It was a lot different than I originally thought."" Page 14: "Women do not like the way customers treat them (Thompson and Harred 1992). Furthermore they say they do not like talking to customers, asking men for money, and resent having to have to deal with them at all. They find customers irritating because they are drunk and have negative attitudes towards women. Women characterize customers as scum, psycho mama's boys, rapists and child molesters, old perverted men, idiots, ass-holes, and pigs. [color=red]Strippers are largely disgusted by customers and describe them as pitiful and pathetic, stupid and ignorant, sick, controlling and abusive[/color]. "They smell so sour, they breathe very heavy and kind of wheeze when women are near." "They are weak abusers who have to subordinate women and girls to feel like a man." "I see my dad. They're old enough to be my father." "Yuck. I am repulsed by the sight, sound, smell, and touch of them." "I'm embarrassed for them." The women offer insightful evaluations of stripclub customers. They say that these men do not know how to communicate. Moreover, they perceive that customers are out of control, have power and abuse problems, and will do anything to degrade women because they hate women. [color=red]Strippers also state that customers want a free show and think women are cheap[/color]. In contrast, a few women positively perceived some customers as nice and added they are thankful to those who tip well." Page 15: "[color=red]Above all, women in stripping reject the popular image of stripping and clarify the common misperceptions about stripclubs[/color]. "That no one touches you, women enjoy it, and it's okay for men to go there." "That women actually get to wear a costume and actually get to dance." "That we get sexually aroused doing this." "That men are there to have harmless fun, when they are really there to abuse women." "That it is a big party and that the women want to be there for some reason other than money, like sex or to meet men or because they are nudists or exhibitionists." "That you are doing things you want to be doing." "That they are not degrading us because girls always are justifying it with college." "That it is not prostitution." "That it is glamorous, fast money, easy work, way to get ahead." "

Can't say ya didn't ask. Like I said in my earlier post, I'm sure there are opposing studies out there but God knows I don't have the time to Google 'em.

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So, would you marry a stripper or not?

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Probably not, Thomas. But then, I can't imagine a stripper wanting to marry me either, so we're even.

jespah wrote:

Page 15: "Above all, women in stripping reject the popular image of stripping and clarify the common misperceptions about stripclubs. "That no one touches you, women enjoy it, and it's okay for men to go there."

Women in stripping feel it's a mis-perception that it's okay for men to go there? Well, if this is true of most strippers, then I'm with Slappy on the mental capacities of most strippers.

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nimh wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
I just found "the mental state of most strippers is less than stable" to be a pretty damning statement.

Ok woulds it make you feel better if I'd said "the mental state of most strippers I've known or met is less than stable"?

YES!

Either you get it, or you have accidentally stumbled upon the point.

It may seem like you're saying the same thing to you, but trust me, it's a helluva important distinction. It's the difference between an honest statement and a sweeping generalisation.

Oh my god, I don't even want to start because I've said at least 5 times that my "statistics" and my opinion have been based on my OWN EXPERIENCES.

But you seem to conveniently miss that every time and it doesn't seem to matter that you can base your perception of a stripper on the girls you've know, but I can't base mine on the ones I have known/seen. You've never even been to a strip club and yet you seem to know an awful lot about what goes on there (or think you do)

This whole thread has gotten so stupid because no matter what I say, you miss the whole point and jump right on me for saying what is the truth in my reality. And that is that most strippers (I hate that I have to add this f*cking disclaimer...from the base I have to work with, my own personal research project, my own personal experiences) are f*cked in the head in some way.

Go ahead, attack that statement and tell me I am making a generalization but the minute amything different comes out of your mouth you can just remember that your statment is based on the same thing mine is; your personal experience.

Peace out.

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I can say based on personal experience that Mohamed Ali was very quick.

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KMart sucks..definitely
KMart sucks..definitely
KMart sucks..definitely

It's going to rain today, ... definitely definitely going to rain
It's going to rain today, ... definitely definitely going to rain
It's going to rain today, ... definitely definitely going to rainKMart sucks..definitely
KMart sucks..definitely
KMart sucks..definitely

It's going to rain today, ... definitely definitely going to rain
It's going to rain today, ... definitely definitely going to rain
It's going to rain today, ... definitely definitely going to rainKMart sucks..definitely
KMart sucks..definitely
KMart sucks..definitely

It's going to rain today, ... definitely definitely going to rain
It's going to rain today, ... definitely definitely going to rain
It's going to rain today, ... definitely definitely going to rain

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jespah wrote:

There have been scads of pages -- man, is this topic a well-traveled train wreck or what -- since I last looked in. Here are some more tidbits from what I posted (thanks DrewDad for some citing). The more I read about this, the more I see these women as Tom Joad in a g-string. Not a fount of desire or envy (that's laughable anyway), but as a fount of pity, as a person exploited and used by pretty much everyone.

http://www.albany.edu/scj/jcjpc/vol10is1/bernard.pdf

That's all well and good, jespah, but your evidence is irrelevant in this discussion. We're all relying on our gut instincts here -- evidence means nothing to us.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Oh my god, I don't even want to start because I've said at least 5 times that my "statistics" and my opinion have been based on my OWN EXPERIENCES.

But you seem to conveniently miss that every time and it doesn't seem to matter that you can base your perception of a stripper on the girls you've know, but I can't base mine on the ones I have known/seen. [..]

Go ahead, attack that statement and tell me I am making a generalization but the minute amything different comes out of your mouth you can just remember that your statment is based on the same thing mine is; your personal experience.

OK, so I was wrong and you didnt get the point, after all.

The difference between the perceptions I relayed and the perceptions you asserted is THAT I NEVER MADE ANY CLAIM ABOUT WHAT "MOST" STRIPPERS ARE LIKE.

You did.

How is that difference so hard to understand?

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nimh wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
Oh my god, I don't even want to start because I've said at least 5 times that my "statistics" and my opinion have been based on my OWN EXPERIENCES.

But you seem to conveniently miss that every time and it doesn't seem to matter that you can base your perception of a stripper on the girls you've know, but I can't base mine on the ones I have known/seen. [..]

Go ahead, attack that statement and tell me I am making a generalization but the minute amything different comes out of your mouth you can just remember that your statment is based on the same thing mine is; your personal experience.

OK, so I was wrong and you didnt get the point, after all.

The difference between the perceptions I relayed and the perceptions you asserted is THAT I NEVER MADE ANY CLAIM ABOUT WHAT "MOST" STRIPPERS ARE LIKE.

You did.

How is that difference so hard to understand?

Love how you frickin' ignored what I said AGAIN.

I am not going to repeat myself for the umpteenth time. If you can't see with your own eyes what I've said, forget it. You're a lost cause.

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Bella Dea wrote:

You're a lost cause.

...in your opinion.... Laughing

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Disclaimer

Here. I'll make this real easy for you.

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DrewDad wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
You're a lost cause.

...in your opinion....

Of course.

Didn't you read my disclaimer?

:wink:

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Bella Dea wrote:

nimh wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
Oh my god, I don't even want to start because I've said at least 5 times that my "statistics" and my opinion have been based on my OWN EXPERIENCES.

But you seem to conveniently miss that every time and it doesn't seem to matter that you can base your perception of a stripper on the girls you've know, but I can't base mine on the ones I have known/seen. [..]

Go ahead, attack that statement and tell me I am making a generalization but the minute amything different comes out of your mouth you can just remember that your statment is based on the same thing mine is; your personal experience.

OK, so I was wrong and you didnt get the point, after all.

The difference between the perceptions I relayed and the perceptions you asserted is THAT I NEVER MADE ANY CLAIM ABOUT WHAT "MOST" STRIPPERS ARE LIKE.

You did.

How is that difference so hard to understand?

Love how you frickin' ignored what I said AGAIN.

I am not going to repeat myself for the umpteenth time. If you can't see with your own eyes what I've said, forget it. You're a lost cause.

If I may take a shot at this...

nimh is not objecting to the fact that you hold that opinion. It really has nothing to do with whether it's just your opinion or not. He is just saying that without any evidence but your own personal experiences with a miniscule percentage of strippers, you saying "most strippers are f*cked in the head" is meaningless. That's all he's saying.

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On the other hand. Nimh, aren't there some things that you CAN make generalizations about? Sometimes things are just so commonly understood that it doesn't take personal experience to "know" them.

For instance, I believe that in general, gangmembers are violent drug-dealing thugs. Now, I've never been in a gang, I've never even known a gang member, but I've read about them, I've seen documentaries about gangs, and I've heard about them through talking to people. The general consensus is that yes, they really are violent drug-dealing thugs. Are they all? Of course not. But in general, I'd feel pretty comfortable in saying that MOST gang members are violent drug-dealing thugs.

Does that make any sense? Is it ever okay to make a generalization, and if so, when?

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Stripper as a wife.

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