At least 20+ dead students in Virginia Tech; shooter dead

Having well-trained, experience law officers armed on a campus is risky, but the order of the risk is low. Having staff and students armed on campus is a recipe for disaster.

So long, Maporche, as there are sufficient people out there who don't want to give up their own handguns, and who are available to be exploited by the fear-mongers of organizations such as the NRA, the problem won't be solved.

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Re: Media

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

I am so angry at the Media who are putting ratings before the common good---again.

They have repeatedly been advised by a number of experts not to show the Cho pictures and only carefully reporting on his writings and rantings. They fear the making a martyr of Cho will energize other copycat psychotic potential killers to try to beat Cho's record of 32 kills. When these experts are interviewed on TV, the talking head responds that they make a good point. Then they proceed to do exactly what the experts warned they should not do.

Is this stupidity or do ratings trump everything?

BBB

I hadn't seen the experts, but I've been wondering about this. It seems to me that a large part of the appeal for these young shooters is the "NOW everyone will know who I am" aspect. Cho especially seems to have been motivated by that and made sure that his "legacy" was secured by providing his own images, how he wanted to be remembered. Not the kind of nerdy, confused looking guy we saw for the first few days, but this tough guy with no glasses and guns.

So what I've been wondering is if there can be something along the lines of prisoners not profiting from their stories -- news organizations refusing to give too much attention to the shooter. I think it would be impossible, though, because people are so curious and there will be SOME people who know -- those people would probably find a way to get the word out, etc.

Maybe if the penalties were steep enough. Dunno.

I do think that it would remove at least some of the motivation for some of these people if they didn't think their faces would be splashed on the front pages of newspapers for days after their act.

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BBB
Virginia Tech had enough information to know that Cho should have been expelled from the college. What laws, or fear of lawsuits, prevents institutions from taking preventive action when it is clearly needed?

Such actioin might have alerted his parents that he needed immediate help. How could parents not be aware of such serious mental problems?
Is there any indication that they sought medical treatment for their son?

BBB

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The New York Times mentions fear of lawsuits. In August, the CIty University of New York had to pay $65,000 to a student who was barred from her dormitory room after a suicide attempt.

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Re: BBB

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Virginia Tech had enough information to know that Cho should have been expelled from the college. What laws, or fear of lawsuits, prevents institutions from taking preventive action when it is clearly needed?

The American's With Disabilities Act prohibits government entities and employers from discriminating against someone based on "mental impairment".

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Soz
The Media know that the copycat problem occurs after every event yet they still put ratings before the common good.

BBB

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Re: BBB

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Such actioin might have alerted his parents that he needed immediate help. How could parents not be aware of such serious mental problems?
Is there any indication that they sought medical treatment for their son?

BBB

He was over 21, isn't it?

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fishin wrote:

maporsche wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Based on 2005 crime statistics, violent crime was lower in AZ than it was in IL per 100,000 people.

E.g. Phoenix and Tucson: rates for these cities not only surpass the violent crime rate in other Arizona cities and the rate for the state of Arizona, they are also substantially higher than the violent crime rate for the United States - as is the violent crime of the state, too.

But that just as an aside.

Carrying guns as a kind of criminal prevention seems to be .... well, "an unusual idea" for most Europeans.

It's unusual for Europeans because most of your population is pretty un-armed. Ours isn't.

Having lived in Germany for 4.5 years , I can tell you that it is much more than just a matter of not having firearms. It's been a while since I lived over there but it is an entire quantum shift in mentality as far as what government is, what the government's responsibilities are and what the individuals rigyts and responsibilities are.

Guns, pro or con, are a very minute part of the overall difference in mindset.

This goes for the UK as well as most of Europe. While the UK is more close to the US in terms of market economy and freedom for employers to remove staff, etc. we share with our European friends the idea that that we have a fundamental freedom to go about our daily business without fear of attack.

We rely on the government agencies to provide that freedom - in the case of attack from external agents, through the armed forces, in the case of attack from fellow individuals in the community, the service is provided by the police. Only very rarely do individuals feel the need to take this duty into their own hands.

KP

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Psychiatrist: Showing Cho's Video Is 'Social Catastrophe'
Psychiatrist: Showing Cho's Video Is 'Social Catastrophe'
Shooter Was Trying to Attempt Mortality, Showing Clips Validates His Delusions, Welner Says
April 19, 2007

The videos of Seung-hui Cho, the man who fatally shot 32 people at Virginia Tech on Monday and then killed himself, shouldn't have been released because they don't offer the public any greater understanding of the gruesome crime, said Michael Welner, a forensic psychiatrist and ABC News consultant, on "Good Morning America" today.

"If anybody cares about the victims in Blacksburg and if anybody cares about their children, stop showing this video now. Take it off the Internet. Let it be relegated to YouTube," Welner said. "This is a social catastrophe. Showing the video is a social catastrophe."

During a pause in his killing spree Monday, Cho sent a package that included 43 photos, video clips and a letter to NBC. NBC received the package Wednesday.

The videos included Cho's rants on the reasoning behind the crimes he was presumably about to commit.

"Do you know what it feels like to be torched alive? Do you know what it feels like to be humiliated and impaled on a cross and left to bleed to death for your amusement? You have never felt a single ounce of pain in your whole lives. You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience," Cho said in the videos.

Welner believes that instead of offering insight, these videos merely offer validation of delusional behavior.

"I think that's very important for the viewing audience to understand. This is not him.These videos do not help us understand him. They distort him. He was meek. He was quiet. This is a PR tape of him trying to turn himself into a Quentin Tarantino character," Welner said. "This is precisely why this should not be released. Parents, you should cut the pictures out of the newspaper. Do not let your children see it. Take them out of the room when these videos are shown. Because he's paranoid and his agenda of blaming the rest of the world is unedited."

"There's nothing to learn from this except giving it validation. If this rambling showed up in an emergency room, my colleagues and I would listen carefully and, when we reflected that it was delusional, would go see the next patient and start the medication," he said. "This makes it sound like he was tormented. He wasn't."

Although the school and authorities have been criticized in recent days about reports of Cho's mental states and past run-ins with students, Welner said that unless someone appeared to be high risk there was little medical professionals could do.

"In an emergency room, again, unless someone is at high risk, then there's nothing you can do. [Cho] presented to mental health authorities. He's certainly capable of presenting himself quietly," Welner said.

Welner also said that he believed showing the video just gave fodder to people who were already isolated and disaffected.

"I promise you the disaffected will watch him the way they watched 'Natural Born Killers.' I know. I examine these people," he said. "I've examined mass shooters who have told me they've watched it 20 times. You cannot saturate the American public with this kind of message."

Welner maintained, however, that he was not blaming the media for airing the footage.

"It's not an issue of blame. It's an appeal. Please stop now. That's all," he said. "If you can take [talk show host Don] Imus off the air, you can certainly keep [Cho] from having his own morning show."

"They turn themselves into icons. They get articles written about themselves in The New York Times. This is perversion. We have to send a message to alienated people, you know what? You hate everybody around you? You're paranoid. You're sad. You're depressed. But these people are perverts," Welner said.

"They're not powerful. He's a weak link. He needs to create and produce his own picture in order to give himself a sense of power. Nobody saw him that way. He didn't see himself that way and that's why he set this up and he did this to achieve immortality. We have to stop giving him that and we can do it now."

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The parents alerted the school that he might be suicidal. That was part of the reason why he was involuntarily held up at that mental health facility.

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Quote:

Fury at media

The reaction of others was anger, not only at Cho for meticulously premeditating his rampage, but also at the media for airing his last recorded words and images.

Meredith Vieira, co-host of NBC's "Today" show, said some victims' relatives had canceled interviews with the network "because they were very upset with NBC for airing the images," the AP reported.

Robert Bowman, managing editor of the school newspaper, told CNN that he was conflicted: As a journalist, he wants to disseminate information, but as a student, he'd prefer that the tapes weren't released.

"It's difficult to tell what we want to uncover and what we don't want to uncover, but of course with the Collegiate Times our main goal is getting the information out there," Bowman said.

Col. Steven Flaherty of the Virginia State Police said Wednesday that he had hoped the package would contain new clues about Cho's motive and crime, but after reviewing the content, investigators found it "simply confirmed what we already knew."

Flaherty also said he appreciated NBC cooperating with authorities but said he was disconcerted that the videos and images were aired.

"We're rather disappointed in the editorial decision to broadcast these disturbing images," he said. "I'm sorry that you all were exposed to these images."

Flaherty spoke at a news conference in which university Provost Mark G. McNamee announced that the slain students will be awarded honorary degrees

<snip>

Cho declared 'imminent danger'

Experts said the delusions evident in the messages were typical of mass murderers, and they advised people to be on the lookout for warning signs from others who could be emboldened by the coverage.

"These individuals feel out of control. They feel like they're victims, and they want to get even by taking charge," said criminologist James Alan Fox.

In 2005, Cho was declared mentally ill by a Virginia special justice, who found he was "an imminent danger" to himself, a court document states.

Cho's great-aunt, Kim Yang-soon, said Cho was diagnosed with autism after coming to U.S. in 1992. Speaking from her home in South Korea, she described Cho as "very cold" and said her niece was constantly worried about him.

"Every time I called and asked how he was, she would say she was worried about him," Kim said, according to a translation from the AP. "Who would have known he would cause such trouble, the idiot."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/vtech.shooting/index.html

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Cho had a known psychological problem, but he'd broken no la
Posted on Wed, Apr. 18, 2007
TRAGEDY AT VIRGINIA TECH
Cho had a known psychological problem, but he'd broken no laws
By Jane Stancill and Lesley Clark
McClatchy Newspapers

BLACKSBURG, Va. - It seemed like everyone who knew Cho Seung-Hui at Virginia Tech witnessed his odd, disturbing behavior - professors, classmates, roommates and two women he stalked.

Now, the question is, with all the warning signs, should the university have taken more aggressive action to deal with the troubled student? Could something have been done to prevent Monday's massacre?

Virginia Tech police investigated complaints about Cho stalking women two years ago. Professors reported concerns about his classroom behavior and writings laced with violence. At one point, professors told reporters, Cho was removed from class when other students became afraid to attend class with him.

In December 2005, a Montgomery County, Va., court magistrate pronounced him "mentally ill" and dangerous and ordered him treated briefly at a nearby psychiatric hospital.

But he remained enrolled at Virginia Tech, where his mental state deteriorated. On the other hand, he apparently committed no crime and threatened no violence to others.

The painful second-guessing of Virginia Tech's actions could prompt changes in the way U.S. college campuses handle students with mental illnesses. It's already a widely debated issue complicated by questions of medical confidentiality, universities' legal liability and a rising population of college students with serious mental illnesses.

It's an acute problem, according to the National Survey of Counseling Center Directors conducted last year. Ninety-two percent said the number of students with severe psychological issues has increased in recent years. They said 40 percent of students seen at counseling centers have severe problems, including 8 percent whose impairments are so serious that they can't remain in school or can do so only with extensive treatment.

Ironically, college counselors attribute the rise to improvements in psychiatric drugs that allow more people with mental illnesses to make it to college in the first place.

It has created new problems for universities, where counseling centers are often not equipped to deal with serious illnesses and growing numbers of students who need treatment.

Kevin Kruger, associate executive director of the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators, said the Virginia Tech tragedy is likely to influence many colleges' policies about how they identify students who may dangerous.

"My gut on this is we're going to become more likely to want to remove students from the educational environment," Kruger said.

There are no easy answers.

After a 2002 lawsuit by the parents of an MIT student who committed suicide, more universities began to force suicidal students to withdraw from school, at least temporarily. Another lawsuit by a George Washington University student claims that the school violated the federal disability law when his college career there ended after he sought help for depression.

"Everyone's going to be looking at those threshold points, and (ask) `When do we take more drastic action?'" Kruger said. "It's the classic tension between individual freedom - the right of every individual to stay on campus - with the interests of the community."

In 2004, San Francisco's Academy of Art University was assailed for its decision to expel a student who wrote an explicit essay in a creative writing class. School officials said Wednesday that the incident was an example of a university putting security first.

"People were saying free speech, but it was a lot more complicated," said Sallie Huntting, the school's vice president for public relations. She said she was reluctant to criticize Virginia Tech, but suggested that schools should treat threatening speech with more alarm.

"It's a fine line, but if it's disturbing I think it's important for schools to look into this deeper," Huntting said. "Yes, there are laws that protect the individual and his privacy, but we all have to look at these safety issues and make a decision.

"If a student is disturbed, you can't say it's a moody student, it has to be taken seriously. We all have that responsibility."

Sheldon Steinbach, a former attorney for the American Council on Education, said universities are well versed in handling troubled students, and only with 20-20 hindsight could one have predicted such trauma.

"On any given campus, particularly one that is as academically selective as Tech is, there are individuals that exhibit peculiar tendencies, and increasingly more and more students come to school with a variety of emotional problems and on medication," Steinbach said. "No one is suggesting that these people ought to be barred from campus."

Sophisticated protocols are in place on most campuses to deal with seriously troubled students, Steinbach said. "It seems that Virginia Tech dotted every I and crossed every T."

Strange behavior is largely a judgment call, and forcing students into treatment isn't usually an option, said Maggie Olona, head of student counseling at Texas A&M University and president of the Association for University and College Counseling Center Directors.

"They said there were signs there," Olona said of Cho. "There can be signs, but it's not a crime to be odd. There is nothing we can do if someone doesn't give us evidence to act."

Many universities have case management teams that meet to evaluate students whose behavior repeatedly raises red flags. But it's also easy for students to slip through the cracks.

Texas A&M, for example, employs 27 counselors for 45,000 to 46,000 students - "and we are well staffed and well funded," Olona said.

"You do the math."
----------------------------------------------------

Stancill reports for the Raleigh News and Observer.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

You may call that "mentality". Here, it's called concept/idea of a state.

True enough. But it goes further than the idea of of a state is or isn't. The mindset is evident in daily interactions between individuals and in the individual/business relationships which fall outside of any "state" entity.

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Police 'sorry' killer's videos were broadcast
Police 'sorry' killer's videos were broadcast
Independent UK
Published: 19 April 2007

US police said tonight they were "sorry" hate-filled videos recorded by campus killer Cho Seung-Hui have been broadcast.

Virginia Police Superintendent Steve Flaherty said he was disappointed US channel NBC chose to show the disturbing footage.

He said officers studied the ranting speeches recorded by the 23-year-old South Korean murderer but they "simply confirmed what we already knew".

Although NBC News delayed broadcasting clips for several hours while FBI officers examined the footage, it has since been criticised for airing them.

Family members of victims cancelled plans to appear on NBC's flagship Today news show as a result, host Meredith Vieira said.

Mr Flaherty told a press conference in Blacksburg that police hoped the videos might help them understand why the massacre took place.

But he said there was little of meaningful value in the package of videos, photographs and documents.

"We are trying to determine what happened and as much as possible, why, why this terrible tragedy occurred," he said.

Asked if he was worried about a copycat killing, Mr Flaherty said: "I'm worried about absolutely nothing.

"A lot of folks that saw images that really were very disturbing, and do the type of things that those of us in my walk of life usually have to contend with and deal with ... I just think that a lot of folks are not used to seeing that type of image."

Virginia Tech University said all the students among the 32 people murdered on Monday will be awarded posthumous degrees.

Classes will resume on Monday as police continue to pore over "mounds" of evidence that has been collected.

Forensic examination of the crime scenes is almost over, police said. It was also revealed that officers have not yet spoken to Cho's parents.

More than 72 hours after the first shots were fired, attention has focused on a series of videos recorded by Cho and posted as a package during a break in the killing.

It was opened at NBC headquarters in New York yesterday, two days after Cho killed 32 people and then himself in the bloodiest shooting rampage in modern US history.

A postmark revealed it was sent at a Blacksburg post office at about 9am on Monday, around an hour and 45 minutes after the first shots were fired.

Police said most, if not all, of the footage appeared to have been shot before the shooting began.

They had previously been unable to explain what Cho was doing in the two hours between the first two deaths at a dormitory and the second classroom massacre.

The images, some featuring Cho brandishing weapons including guns, a knife and a hammer, have been broadcast around the world.

Professor Paul Harrill, of Virginia Tech University, said Cho may have been re-enacting scenes from a gory South Korean film.

The images of Cho, who moved to the US from South Korea as a child, bear a startling resemblance to images from Oldboy, an award-winning film.

Dressed in a black T-shirt, Cho is pictured swinging a hammer above his shoulder, and holding a handgun to his temple.

The hammer is the signature weapon of the main character of the film and Cho is photographed wielding it in the same distinctive style.

In the video package, Cho spoke in a rambling and sometimes incoherent monologue, his sentences filled with expletives and violent imagery.

The killer compared himself to Jesus Christ and said he died to inspire generations of "weak and defenceless people".

Cho, who studied English, appeared to be reading from a "manifesto" as he labelled fellow students "brats" and "snobs".

He said: "You have vandalised my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience. You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing.

"Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenceless people."

NBC News president Steve Capus, to whom the package was addressed, said that in one clip Cho talks about the massacre, saying "this didn't have to happen".

He refers to "martyrs like Eric and Dylan" - a reference to the teenagers responsible for the Columbine High School massacre in 1999.

Yesterday it emerged Cho was held in a mental health unit after two women students complained about his behaviour in 2005.

Teachers and fellow students described a loner who barely spoke to others and who wrote "disturbing" violent fiction in creative writing classes.

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You certainly might be correct with that view, fishin. (Though I don't know exactly at what you are referring at exactly.)

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Re: Psychiatrist: Showing Cho's Video Is 'Social Catastrophe

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Psychiatrist: Showing Cho's Video Is 'Social Catastrophe'

[..]

"It's not an issue of blame. It's an appeal. Please stop now. That's all," he said. "If you can take [talk show host Don] Imus off the air, you can certainly keep [Cho] from having his own morning show."

"They turn themselves into icons. They get articles written about themselves in The New York Times. This is perversion. [..]

He needs to create and produce his own picture in order to give himself a sense of power. Nobody saw him that way. He didn't see himself that way and that's why he set this up and he did this to achieve immortality. We have to stop giving him that and we can do it now."

The UK organisation MediaWise, an initiative of "'victims of media abuse', concerned journalists, media lawyers and politicians", sent out a roughly similar warning today:

Quote:

Don't lionise mass killers

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maporsche wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:
To repeat, this would not have happened had he not had ridiculously easy access to hand guns.

Yeah, because a little poisen from the chemistry lab would have been REALLY hard to get. Maybe some rat poisen would could have done some harm.

If you are as intent on killing people as this guy was (he freakin' chained the damn door) you will find a way using whatever is available to you. Gun or not, this guy was messed up.

To repeat, this guy would have done something if he had access to handguns or not.

That is exactly the point. Nicely said.

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Setanta wrote:

But you're choosing to ignore my central point, which is that this situation arises from unfettered gun use and ownership over a long period of time, and a culture which happens to glorify murderous psychopaths. It will take a long, long time to change that--but the inability to solve the problem immediately is not a good reason not to attempt to solve the problem, even knowing it could take a long, long time.

I don't disagree with the concept of long term solutions (look at my M.E. politics, my one world immigration thoughts or my desire to provide food and clean water and a basic right of self determination to the planet.)(None of which can or will happen anytime soon). I just don't see hand-gun bans having any direct impact in the near future, nor how different choices in the recent past would have helped here. Let me switch sides for a moment, and provide a makeshift battle plan for the Anti-Gun folks, in hopes of clarifying my point.

Hand guns in criminal and/or crazy hands are a bad thing. We all agree.
What do you do about it?
1. Pass legislation that criminalizes ownership of any weapon not registered with the ATF, complete with ballistics test firings and #engraving and establish a database not unlike the fingerprint database of the NCIC for every known weapon in existence. Said legislation should be written to assume non compliance with this measure constitutes conspiracy to commit first degree murder and stipulate that all parties to the crime of trafficking, owning, selling or otherwise knowingly handling said weapons are thereby guilty of this offense.

2. Pass legislation that automatically promotes use of a firearm, be it registered or not, in commission of a crime is treated the same way.

3. Pass legislation that allows a large segment of the "law abiding community" to carry weapons at will; providing they have met strict criteria and undergo periodic training to obtain and maintain a license that both allows them the continued privilege AND obligates them to use their discretion according to their training (not unlike a life-saving certificate obligates one to save the drowning man).

4. Pass an amnesty bill that allows owners of weapons who cannot or don't want to own weapons under the new guidelines. Full appraised value should be paid for guns and ammunition by the federal government.

5. Pass extremely harsh mandatory penalties for all forms of Violent Crime to get and keep the A-holes off the streets, before they graduate to cold hearted killers. This kid was just a freak; but the bigger problem stems from gang violence.

6. Eliminate the idiotic legislation that seals childhood records from juries during criminal proceedings. If a 19 year old violent offender has a long history of violence; the jury needs to know about it.

7. Abandon the idiotic Drug War in favor of concentrating 20% of its current resources on treatment facilities and awareness campaigns, and the other 80% on Ending Violent Crime as we know it.

Among the many side effects of this idiotic attempt at prohibition; is that the illicit drug trade establishes and maintains a vast network of otherwise law abiding citizens who know who they can trust in the outlaw world. The guy who sells weed for a living turns the blind eye to the guy who sells crack, who in turn turns the blind eye to the guy who sells AK-47's, who likely turns the blind eye to the really bad guys. That is why I'm confident I could buy an AK without any difficulty whatsoever, without regard for legal paperwork. Decriminalize the drug trade and the underground network of criminals practically evaporates since it is a relative few druggies that are otherwise interested in criminal activity. I would wager few people know who to call for an unregistered gun, and fewer still who know who they can trust. Most know who they can call to "hook um up a bag of weed"... and generally you're talking about the same guy, through the grapevine. The local liquor store is unlikely to provide this kind of referral.

Notice; even in the gun-ban I described; there exists a means for Joe citizen to enjoy his constitutional right to bear arms. For the century or so that the worst of the worst, who will not be taking advantage of the amnesty period, are "the only one's with guns" there needs to be some kind of equalizer. I think it could probably be done IF the criminals knew that even as the overall numbers of guns in the hands victims decreased; their chances of running into armed resistance remained fairly constant. By and large; I think Doctors, Teachers, Pilots and other professionals who are already charged to some degree with maintaining our well being can and should be trusted to act as pseudo-law enforcement in case of an emergency... if they volunteer for the task... and should be encouraged to do so.

A straight ban on guns, on the other hand is like spotting criminals HOR in a game of HORSE.

Setanta wrote:

I'm no fool, though--i understand that likely nothing effective will be done, because handgun owners who are or allege themselves to be "law-abiding citizens" and the NRA represent a powerful lobby, whose particular interest will be to see that nothing is done about the proliferation of handguns.

I honestly think it's too late to address the problem at the "proliferation" stage. We're plenty proliferated.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

You certainly might be correct with that view, fishin. (Though I don't know exactly at what you are referring at exactly.)

I guess what I mean is that there is a general level of trust in and respect for other's in Germany that doesn't exist in the U.S..

If you go to your local postal facility to mail a package you probably expect that the person at the counter will be curteous and competent. That you will be charged the correct amount, your package will be properly handled and will arrive where it is being sent. I found that sort of "trust" to be the norm in my dealings with pretty much every German I met. Not just with the Postal service but with every government office and pretty much every business too. Yes, there are occassional problems but people generally expect that they aren't the norm and when it does happen you expect that someone will look into it and fix the problem so that it doens't happen again. Government employees are held to a higher level of accountability (and afforded more respect). People accept blame for their faults.

The mentality is pretty much the exact opposite here. In the U.S. we've pretty much come to expect incompetence. You don't mail a package here thinking it will arrive undamaged and on time. Going to the Post Oiffice (or Town Office) is a chore here and most people expect it to be an exercise in frustration. When someone here mentions they have to go to City Hall for something it's quickly followed by rolling eyes and a sigh or grinding their teeth. We expect that any problems we run into won't be fixed. They probably won't even be looked into and even if they are they'll be ignored or covered up. People point fingers at someone else instead of admitting their part in any problems.

When you start with that sort of difference in mindset you end up with very different views on lots of larger issues.

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Quote:

"If you can take [talk show host Don] Imus off the air, you can certainly keep [Cho] from having his own morning show."

Word.

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At least 20+ dead students in Virginia Tech; shooter dead

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