At least 20+ dead students in Virginia Tech; shooter dead

Merry Andrew wrote:

JTT and Paaskynen -- two very well reasoned and welcome responses.

Please tell me how my anti-gun-control argument is not well reasoned. I can understand it not being welcome, but I have spent many hours developing my reasoning.

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I don't think having a mental illness is bragging. Most people that suffer from it won't talk about it or even admit it. They hide it. They hide because of the fear of non acceptance and ridicule.

I have also been in an institution, not be choice either. Yeah, that is something to brag about. That institution helped me. The people there were highly trained. They even let me break the rules (once).

No, what I found out was the people in there on the most part were normal.
They needed help in dealing with a problem they didn't understand. One of the staff members was there not as staff. That person whose job is to help people realized they had a problem.

I don't know what the solution is. It appears that most of these shootings could have been prevented. There were signs that people admitted after the fact.

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fishin wrote:

Paaskynen wrote:
Not bragging, but I just read that in the US there are more registered arms merchants than petrol stations. Can that be true? If so it indicates the scope of the issue.

That was a claim made by the Violence Prevention Center ( a strident anti-gun group) made in 1992. By their own admission that has changed drastically since then.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/dealers.pdf

I see, I already found it hard to believe, because methinks the average US citizen loves cars more than guns.

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To those on the anti gun crowd.

Since for the most part you are FOR banning guns (or handguns at least) and infringing on those freedoms to save the lifes of others. I would imagine that you are also supportive of the warrentless wiretapping that the Bush administration wants to use to also protect the lives of others?

And to the pro gun crowd.

How can you be so strident towards protecting the freedoms of gun owners yet so cavelier about giving other freedoms away to the Bush administration?

I am pro gun, anti-wiretapping, and pro-choice. I believe that this is the only logical position to take regarding these political footballs. Someone prove me wrong.

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TTH wrote:

I have also been in an institution, not be choice either. Yeah, that is something to brag about. That institution helped me. The people there were highly trained. They even let me break the rules (once).

Dd the people at that institution follow the law and identify the fact that you had been institutionalized to the proper authorities so that you would automatcally be flagged and denied if you try to purchase a firearm? Or did they "break the rules" there too?

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So it's starting to sound like the central mistake was either a) Cho NOT being entered into a mental health data base when he should have been or b) the place who sold him the gun not checking adequately.

Is that about right?

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Paaskynen wrote:

fishin wrote:
Paaskynen wrote:
Not bragging, but I just read that in the US there are more registered arms merchants than petrol stations. Can that be true? If so it indicates the scope of the issue.

That was a claim made by the Violence Prevention Center ( a strident anti-gun group) made in 1992. By their own admission that has changed drastically since then.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/dealers.pdf

I see, I already found it hard to believe, because methinks the average US citizen loves cars more than guns.

I think its about equal. I live in South Western Kentucky so maybe my reality is somewhat different than other parts of the US but nearly everyone I know has at least one of each.

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Paaskynen wrote:

fishin wrote:
Paaskynen wrote:
Not bragging, but I just read that in the US there are more registered arms merchants than petrol stations. Can that be true? If so it indicates the scope of the issue.

That was a claim made by the Violence Prevention Center ( a strident anti-gun group) made in 1992. By their own admission that has changed drastically since then.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/dealers.pdf

I see, I already found it hard to believe, because methinks the average US citizen loves cars more than guns.

That's obvious by the number of lives that are lost due to speeding and automobile accidents.....yet nobody is taking up those causes.........

Mandatory 10,000 fine for all speeders. You broke the law, risked the lives of others, and you will pay. If someone dies in an automobile accident and speeding was involved you have to tack on an 25 year jail sentence, no manslaughter, instant Class I felony (similar to the death w/firearm laws). How many of you would be supportive of that?

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sozobe wrote:

So it's starting to sound like the central mistake was either a) Cho NOT being entered into a mental health data base when he should have been or b) the place who sold him the gun not checking adequately.

Is that about right?

No, I think the gun was sold legally.

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Well, that's why I'm saying a or b. From what I'm gathering here, (it might be on another thread, there are two going almost simultaneously), Cho was picked up and given some sort of mental health treatment after he said he was going to commit suicide. IF that was entered into the system, it WOULDN'T have been a legal sale (because the seller wasn't supposed to sell to someone in that system).

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sozobe wrote:

So it's starting to sound like the central mistake was either a) Cho NOT being entered into a mental health data base when he should have been or b) the place who sold him the gun not checking adequately.

Is that about right?

Not sure. We know he purchased the 9mm from a licensed gun dealer who ran the NCIC check. I don't think anybody wants to give every gun dealer direct access to the a mental health database so I think they did what they were supposed to do. Why the NCIC database didn't kick out a purchase denial to the dealer is up in the air. "The System" failed somewhere between the mental health professionals that treated him and the NCIC approval.

On the .22 he had - can't comment until we know where that gun came from. If it was a private sale there wouldn't have been a NCIC check.

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sozobe wrote:

Well, that's why I'm saying a or b. From what I'm gathering here, (it might be on another thread, there are two going almost simultaneously), Cho was picked up and given some sort of mental health treatment after he said he was going to commit suicide. IF that was entered into the system, it WOULDN'T have been a legal sale (because the seller wasn't supposed to sell to someone in that system).

The Virginia law says the following

Quote:

Have you ever been adjudicated legally incompetent, mentally incapacitated, or been involuntarily committed to a mental institution?

From what I've heard the shooter didn't fall into these classifications.
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_PurchaseEligibility.shtm

The law also says that you cannot purchase more than 1 hand gun every 30 days. Interesting.

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OK, thanks, fishin. This is what I was getting at:

fishin wrote:

Why the NCIC database didn't kick out a purchase denial to the dealer is up in the air. "The System" failed somewhere between the mental health professionals that treated him and the NCIC approval.

It seems (of course pending further info) that the central problem and the way this might have been averted lies in that area.

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sozobe wrote:

Well, that's why I'm saying a or b. From what I'm gathering here, (it might be on another thread, there are two going almost simultaneously), Cho was picked up and given some sort of mental health treatment after he said he was going to commit suicide. IF that was entered into the system, it WOULDN'T have been a legal sale (because the seller wasn't supposed to sell to someone in that system).

I thought there were NO checks in Virginia for sellers at the frequent "gun shows" where seller s can sell from their "private collections" with no checks, waiting periods or limits?

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maporsche wrote:

The Virginia law says the following

Quote:
Have you ever been adjudicated legally incompetent, mentally incapacitated, or been involuntarily committed to a mental institution?

From what I've heard the shooter didn't fall into these classifications.
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_PurchaseEligibility.shtm

The law also says that you cannot purchase more than 1 hand gun every 30 days. Interesting.

According to the latest press stories he had been involuntarily commited to a mental instution which is the 3rd category listed.

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Latest Yahoo news item indicates that both guns were legal purchases:

Quote:

Cho used two handguns, which police confirmed he had purchased legally, and stopped only to reload.

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fishin wrote:

maporsche wrote:

The Virginia law says the following

Quote:
Have you ever been adjudicated legally incompetent, mentally incapacitated, or been involuntarily committed to a mental institution?

From what I've heard the shooter didn't fall into these classifications.
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_PurchaseEligibility.shtm

The law also says that you cannot purchase more than 1 hand gun every 30 days. Interesting.

According to the latest press stories he had been involuntarily commited to a mental instution which is the 3rd category listed.

Ok, I hadn't heard that.

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dlowan wrote:

sozobe wrote:
Well, that's why I'm saying a or b. From what I'm gathering here, (it might be on another thread, there are two going almost simultaneously), Cho was picked up and given some sort of mental health treatment after he said he was going to commit suicide. IF that was entered into the system, it WOULDN'T have been a legal sale (because the seller wasn't supposed to sell to someone in that system).

I thought there were NO checks in Virginia for sellers at the frequent "gun shows" where seller s can sell from their "private collections" with no checks, waiting periods or limits?

That appears to irrelevant in this particular case but yes, a private individual can sell their firearms in VA at a gun show without a check. A check is required, gun show or not, for any licensed dealer.

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fishin wrote:

TTH wrote:
I have also been in an institution, not be choice either. Yeah, that is something to brag about. That institution helped me. The people there were highly trained. They even let me break the rules (once).

Dd the people at that institution follow the law and identify the fact that you had been institutionalized to the proper authorities so that you would automatcally be flagged and denied if you try to purchase a firearm? Or did they "break the rules" there too?

I have no idea. I don't know what they do. I don't know what their rules are that they have to follow. Assuming it is against the law for me.

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Paaskynen

Paaskynen wrote:

Not bragging, but I just read that in the US there are more registered arms merchants than petrol stations. Can that be true? If so it indicates the scope of the issue.

I get so tired of gun advocates mantra that it's their right to bear arms ala the NRA. In fact, its not about gun freedom. It's about the right to sell guns. As usual, it all comes down to money. The NRA is a front for the gun industry.

BBB

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At least 20+ dead students in Virginia Tech; shooter dead

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