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Being against illegal immigration doesn't make you a racist.

 
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 07:40 pm
Andrew Tarsy of the Anti-defamation league wrote:

We fight against bigotry in all forms It has become clear both in the extremist world and even in the mainstream that the conversation about immigrants is laced with bigotry.


You are missing the point DTOM.

First of all, I have never said, nor do I believe, that only white people are racist. I have been consistant arguing against racism of all forms (and I hold to my definition of racism as the destructive defamation of people to promote hatred of a specific group). Yes, the statement that only white people are racist is a racist statement. Let me put this to bed by saying again-- there are racists of every ethnic group.

Second, As I have said since I typed the title of this thread... being opposed to illegal immigration does not make you a racist.

That being said...

There are racist arguments that are being used by the anti-illegal immigrant side. Not all people against illegal immigration are using these racist arguments... but it is common enough that the Anti-defamation League, which is a civil rights organization not generally associated with Hispanics, is taking note. They go as far as to say that the immigration debate, "even in the mainstream", is "laced with bigotry".

I believe that you are minimizing the prevalance and negative impact of bigotry.

Perhaps, the conversation will be more productive with specific examples from non-fringe groups.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 08:18 pm
[First, if you are coming late to this discussion, please go back and read my initial post in this thread where I specificy what parts of the debate cross over the line into racism.]

Let's talk about the idea that people working here illegally, and their supporters, consitute an "invasion".

William Calhoun wrote:

This is an invasion of America, and there is no other way to see it. Mexico, like most other third-world nations, despises the West. But they know they cannot defeat it in conventional battle, but only invade under the auspices of "reverse colonialism." The West contains most of the world's resources, and the third-world hordes regularly invade the West to rape and ravish it of its riches. And it is not just Mexico that invades, but all of South America, Africa, Asia, China and India are coming too.

It is only with more earnest measures that we can stop this illegal invasion. For starters, we must demand serious border security. We need fencing along the entire US-Mexico border, with razor-wire reinforcements. We need land mines placed all along the US-Mexico border. We need agents to open fire at anyone approaching the US border. And we need more auxiliary units of volunteer militias to guard the border, and then to help round up and deport all the illegals currently in the US.

It will be harsh, but necessary. Many Mexicans in the US military will probably side with Mexico...


The word "invasion" defames the vast majority immigrants who are crossing ilegally to find work, or to be with their families, or to find a better future. It is defamation because it is a strong accusation of hostility toward the United States leveled at people, many of whom want nothing more than to become citizens.

Not everyone who uses the word "invasion" goes as far as this writer, but the implicit meaning of the word is clear.

And the use of the word "invasion" is almost always used to include US citizens-- the implication being that Hispanic American, even non-Hispanic immigrant advocates, are really anti-American traitors.

These themes are common and have even been used on A2K. They go far beyond the discussion about compassion and strict enforcment of the law. They are defamatory, and they promote hatred.

The "invasion theme" used by a significant number of people certainly matches the criteria to be considered racist. How many people on A2K who want strict enforcement will reject it.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 09:33 pm
Whether you realize it or not, ebrown, the points you make brings out one very important point, and that is that illegal immigration is spawning alot of resentment. Instead of attacking the resentment as you do, you should instead recognize that such resentments are only a natural reaction to something that people see as wrong, and a frustration that their government is not doing enough to correct the problem. All of this points us to the fact that real measures need to be accomplished here to fix the problem. Instead, people that desire the strong measures are accused of racism or called bigots, and of not being compassionate. Frankly, most of us are tired of it and sick of hearing it, because we know better. Liberals love to play the race card for virtually everything, and I for one am tired of it.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 06:35 am
If you could teach a chimpanzee to say "Union Yes!" and dress him up in a suit and tie, he'd have no trouble getting elected in most of the country.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 01:42 pm
cjhsa wrote:
If you could teach a chimpanzee to say "Union Yes!" and dress him up in a suit and tie, he'd have no trouble getting elected in most of the country.


well cj, you are undeniably correct in as much as the last two presidential elections show that a vast number of folks in the country have no problem voting for a chimp...

http://www.bushorchimp.com/images/pic58.jpg

sorry bro, you left the door open on that one.. :wink:
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 02:26 pm
Okie,

There are two sides to this...

It is frustrating that that you refuse to accept that those of us who are promoting compassion over the "strong measures" you are promoting are Americans, and equal to you in every way. It seems to bother you that those you call "liberals" are allowed to vote-- but sorry, it is in the Constitution.

The reason that "your government" isn't doing what you want, is that it is "our government" as well (unfortunately up to this point this has led to an unproductive stalemate, but that's democracy).

This is an aside to the issues being raised by this thread.

The fact is that racist arguments keep being used. Any time we object to real racism coming from your side, you folks hide your head in sand.

You can't even bring yourselves to distance yourself from it.

Again, let me make this very clear. Not everything from the anti-illegal immigration side is based on racism. For example, an argument that we shouldn't encourage illegal behavior is a perfectly good argument that I don't accuse of being racist.

There are examples where the anti-illegal immigration side uses rhetoric that goes much further than wanting to uphold the law.

I am not saying everything is racist. I am giving very specific examples.

You seem saying that you don't believe that the use of racist themes in a public debate is a problem.

For you to yell "race card" everytime someone brings up a specific example of racist rhetoric is a cop out.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 04:35 pm
clearly the calhoun rant that e.b. posted is racist.

and as we can see, by making it a race issue, he drains away any chance of being taken seriously.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 11:05 pm
More idiocy and needless dying by the lack of enforcement of a decent immigration policy:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,273833,00.html

This kind of stuff has been happening, commonplace, on the highways now for years. How many people have to die for people to wake up to the problem? What makes people think any new legislation will ever be enforced when they have not enforced what is on the books already? The politicians have utterly failed us, and they are failing the illegal immigrants. Where is the compassion and the respect for the law?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 12:18 am
ebrown_p wrote:
The fact is that racist arguments keep being used. Any time we object to real racism coming from your side, you folks hide your head in sand.


i agree with you on this.

you have to admit though, that it comes off as equally racist when people on the pro-i.i. side hold up signs saying "go back to europe". does it not ?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 10:02 am
DTOM, As an American minority senior, I have heard people tell me "go back to your own country." This was right after WWII. I'm not sure what happened to those racial bigots, but I'm also positive not all racial bigots have disappeared from our landscape. Our grandfather came to the US in 1893, and this IS our home.

Fast forward: We now have many different nationalities and cultures in our family. I wonder who amongst us in the US would tell us to "go home, now?" Only ignorant, racial bigots.
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 02:01 pm
Let me pose a question to whomever. I am standing in line for 3 hours waiting to buy tickets to a ballgame. Five or six hispanics cut in line ahead of me. When I get to the window i'm told sorry we just sold the last ticket. If I start screaming about the people who cut in line ahead of me, does this make me racial bigot.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 02:10 pm
Hell no, just as long as you would react the same way with anybody else breaking the Que.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 02:27 pm
DTOM,

I think I have a good track record of calling racism when I see it on my own side. This has been especially important when debating the Palestinian Conflict where I am sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians but can't stomach the anti-semitism that sometimes comes from my own side. Anti-Semitism also crops up sometimes in anti-war circles. I always strongly and loudly reject these ideas when I hear them.

I think these signs are trying to be ironic, but I guess technically they are racist. I think they are more stupid then harmful... but OK, I wlil call them racism if you would like.

Rabel.

No in the situation you described-- your anger would not be racism.

However if people already in the park claimed that (perhaps becuase of these six) that Hispanics who wanted to come to the game had leporsy... that would be another story.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 02:28 pm
rabel22 wrote:
Let me pose a question to whomever. I am standing in line for 3 hours waiting to buy tickets to a ballgame. Five or six hispanics cut in line ahead of me. When I get to the window i'm told sorry we just sold the last ticket. If I start screaming about the people who cut in line ahead of me, does this make me racial bigot.
What if they hopped the fence on the other side of the park because they couldn't afford the extraordinary admission price, chose seats that would have been vacant otherwise and it slowed you down, not at all? Upon learning of it; would you feel the urge to scream? What if instead of a ball park; they were just after a crappy job and enough to eat? Still screaming?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 02:57 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
rabel22 wrote:
Let me pose a question to whomever. I am standing in line for 3 hours waiting to buy tickets to a ballgame. Five or six hispanics cut in line ahead of me. When I get to the window i'm told sorry we just sold the last ticket. If I start screaming about the people who cut in line ahead of me, does this make me racial bigot.
What if they hopped the fence on the other side of the park because they couldn't afford the extraordinary admission price, chose seats that would have been vacant otherwise and it slowed you down, not at all? Upon learning of it; would you feel the urge to scream? What if instead of a ball park; they were just after a crappy job and enough to eat? Still screaming?


How do you know those seats would have been empty otherwise?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 03:00 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
DTOM,

I think I have a good track record of calling racism when I see it on my own side. .........I think these signs are trying to be ironic, but I guess technically they are racist. I think they are more stupid then harmful... but OK, I wlil call them racism if you would like.


yeah, i think you have been pretty fair about that for the most part.

and yeah, since i am home, i don't need to go to europe to be home. that's what makes it stupid to say something like that.

the harmful part is that it only causes me (or any other native born american ) to resent the person holding the sign; in which case i don't feel much like helping or giving him anything.

now, the ironic part; if we did "go back to europe", should we go ahead and take espanol back to espana? :wink:
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 03:03 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
What if they hopped the fence on the other side of the park because they couldn't afford the extraordinary admission price?


well, just like "dine and dash", that would be stealing wouldn't it ?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 03:14 pm
mysteryman wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
rabel22 wrote:
Let me pose a question to whomever. I am standing in line for 3 hours waiting to buy tickets to a ballgame. Five or six hispanics cut in line ahead of me. When I get to the window i'm told sorry we just sold the last ticket. If I start screaming about the people who cut in line ahead of me, does this make me racial bigot.
What if they hopped the fence on the other side of the park because they couldn't afford the extraordinary admission price, chose seats that would have been vacant otherwise and it slowed you down, not at all? Upon learning of it; would you feel the urge to scream? What if instead of a ball park; they were just after a crappy job and enough to eat? Still screaming?


How do you know those seats would have been empty otherwise?
Because it was my hypothetical. Cool Are you going to pick the oranges that rot on the trees when there's so much as talk about a potential raid? I think not.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 03:17 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
What if they hopped the fence on the other side of the park because they couldn't afford the extraordinary admission price?


well, just like "dine and dash", that would be stealing wouldn't it ?
Only if someone's deliberately missing the point. Point: Those standing in line are effected NOT AT ALL... you know, just like immigration. For the record; everyone of them who qualified would get a green light under King Bill as well. :wink:
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 03:19 pm
King Bill? OUCH!
0 Replies
 
 

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