0
   

Being against illegal immigration doesn't make you a racist.

 
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 08:40 am
Will they get discounted insurance rates because of their immigration status ebp? Who will pay the real premiums?
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 10:30 am
Quote:
This is one example of how the current immigration system that forces immigrants into the shadows is unworkable.


So you think they should have to be in the shadows. They are here illegally and you could careless about the laws. I thought it was fine for criminals to be in the shadows. They are only in the shadows because of their own actions.

Quote:
By providing a path to citizenship, these illegal immigrants (many of whom already pay taxes but I will go along with your point) can become tax-paying legal immigrants with legal drivers licenses and insurance through their legal employment.


What do we do about them breaking the law? Do they get a pass because they are illegal? I can go alone with a path to citizenship but I want to see fines and heavy ones for breaking the law. If they have any type of record with the police they should be fined and removed from the country. I'm not talking about a traffic ticket because just about everyone gets them. I'm talking about DUI type stuff and greater.

Quote:
This thread is about the which arguments in the immigration debate have racist themes.


That could really be placed on your interpation of what is racist. There are some things that are obvious while there are others that aren't so obvious. Make english the offical launguage isn't racist but making illegals who are from mexico only wear a captial I on their shirts would be.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 07:38 pm
Calderon racist?

Quote:

Crack down on illegal migration, Mexican president tells Bush
Last Updated: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 | 7:40 PM ET
CBC News

Mexico's president had a blunt message for the visiting U.S. president on Tuesday, telling George W. Bush to crack down on illegal immigration and curb America's demand for drugs.

"Our relationship with the U.S. is the most important [one] for Mexico," Felipe Calderon told Bush in Spanish during a welcome ceremony in the eastern city of Merida. "But also your relationship with Mexico is the most important for the U.S."

Bush's arrival in Mexico marks his last stop on a five-country tour of Latin America. While Bush will visit the Mayan ruins, he will spend most of his time meeting with Calderon.

During the welcome ceremony, marked by loud demonstrations by protesters, Calderon explained that the United States and Mexico must work as partners when cracking down on the drug trade between the two countries.

They also must work together to stop illegal migration from Mexico to the United States, Calderon said.

He said the problems could be battled if the United States invested money in Mexico's economy and infrastructure.

"Instead of our workers going where the money is, American money should be invested in Mexico, where the workers are."

CBC Latin correspondent Connie Watson said Tuesday that Calderon's tough stance is a marked change from the friendly relationship Bush had with former Mexican president Vicente Fox.

Watson said Fox's friendship with Bush didn't pay off in the fight against drugs or illegal migration, so Calderon is taking a tougher approach.

Bush responded to Calderon with the same promise he made to Columbians and Guatemalans earlier in his Latin American trip.

"My pledge to you and your government, but more importantly to the people of Mexico, is that I will work as hard as I possibly can to pass comprehensive immigration reform," Bush said Tuesday.

Bush promised the same thing to Fox, Watson said, but couldn't pass any reforms in his own Republican party.


CBC link

I'm looking forward to watching this approach play out.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 08:40 pm
Sounds like a vast improvement over Vicente Fox, who implied that there should be no U.S. immigration control whatsoever.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 03:30 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Bull!

La Raza was founded, is run, and supported by American citizens. They love the United States (their country) as much as you do. La Raza is also the largest civil rights group for Latin Americans and represents millions of Americans.

To suggest that Hispanic citizens want tear apart the US is slander and defamation. Ironically they make the same claim about the Jewish Americans, and they made the same claims about the Japanese Americans and German Americans before this.

This is exactly what I am talking about as the thesis of this thread.

I dare you! Give me one credible source-- that is not from a anti-immigrant group-- that would back up this ridiculous slander about La Raza, or about any real part of the Hispanic American community it represents..

This is pathetic.

[ and yes, I spend quite a bit of time with La Raza members...]


OK,how about La Voz de Aztlan and a University of New Mexico Proffessor?

http://www.aztlan.net/homeland.htm

Quote:


And from here...
http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/Articles/lavoz.html

We get this about La Voz de Aztlan...
Quote:
La Voz, which launched its operations on January 1, 2000, is managed and edited by Hector Carreon, an engineer by training and a former member of the radical Brown Berets. Carreon is also the founder and current leader of the Nation of Aztlán. Other La Voz staff writers include Miroslava Flores and Ernesto Cienfuegos. The publication has earned a reputation for its virulent hatred of whites, Jews, the United States, and Israel. Its articles commonly make reference to "La Raza" ("The Race"), a broad term signifying those whose ancestry is indigenous to the area of Mexico (or "Aztlán"), so as to distinguish them from the aforementioned targets of their antipathy - whites in general (and Jews in particular).

La Voz has ties with MECha, the radical student group that supports open borders, amnesty for illegal aliens, and U.S. recognition of Spanish as an official national language. Like MECha, La Voz embraces the manifesto titled "El Plan de Aztlán," which is a blueprint for the establishment of a homeland for the "bronze race" in the former Spanish territories of the United States. To facilitate the realization of this goal, La Voz advocates a massive influx of "bronze race" members into the U.S. - not to assimilate into American society but rather to set up their own separate enclaves and incrementally drive Europeans out of the region. On its web site, La Voz once posted an excerpt from a February 7, 1997 speech by Cuban dictator Fidel Castro, who said that "the United States should return to Mexico huge chunks of that country's territories it acquired more than a century ago


So,the source I gave you is from a Mexican Group,and one friendly to illegal immigrants.
Are you still going to say that it is ridiculous?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 04:22 am
the president of La Raza wrote:

STATEMENT OF RAUL YZAGUIRRE, NCLR PRESIDENT ON LA VOZ DE AZTLAN

Washington, DC - Recently the National Council of La Raza (NCLR) became aware of a website and other information that is being circulated on the Internet by La Voz de Aztlan. The phrases the site frequently uses, "La Raza de Aztlan" or "La Raza," are generic terms that many use to refer to Mexican American people in this country. NCLR has no connection whatsoever to the website or its sponsoring group.

I am issuing this somewhat unusual statement because, after a cursory review of the website, I found it to be full of reprehensible and bigoted references toward a number of communities - in particular, to the Jewish American community. No responsible Latino organization or leader of my acquaintance agrees with the misinformation being dispensed on the site, nor do I know of any who concur with the grotesque stereotypes that appear in many of its alleged "articles." This site purports to be an "advocacy clearinghouse" for the Mexican American community, but it is anything but that. Its rhetoric is completely antithetical to anyone truly committed to civil rights for all in this nation - it not only disparages Jews, it is full of ugly and snide references to gays and lesbians. Moreover, it attacks the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF), a major Hispanic civil rights organization, apparently because some of its staff have chosen to marry people of other faiths.

These manifestations of hate, intolerance, and bigotry should be condemned by all Americans, especially when carried out in the name of fighting discrimination and oppression against our community. All Americans of conscience should know that this site is the work of a tiny, fringe group and does not reflect the opinions and feelings of the overwhelming majority of Latinos in this country.


I fully agree with La Raza on this issue. Don't you?
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 08:02 am
ebrown_p wrote:
the president of La Raza wrote:

STATEMENT OF RAUL YZAGUIRRE, NCLR PRESIDENT ON LA VOZ DE AZTLAN

Washington, DC - Recently the National Council of La Raza (NCLR) became aware of a website and other information that is being circulated on the Internet by La Voz de Aztlan. The phrases the site frequently uses, "La Raza de Aztlan" or "La Raza," are generic terms that many use to refer to Mexican American people in this country. NCLR has no connection whatsoever to the website or its sponsoring group.

I am issuing this somewhat unusual statement because, after a cursory review of the website, I found it to be full of reprehensible and bigoted references toward a number of communities - in particular, to the Jewish American community. No responsible Latino organization or leader of my acquaintance agrees with the misinformation being dispensed on the site, nor do I know of any who concur with the grotesque stereotypes that appear in many of its alleged "articles." This site purports to be an "advocacy clearinghouse" for the Mexican American community, but it is anything but that. Its rhetoric is completely antithetical to anyone truly committed to civil rights for all in this nation - it not only disparages Jews, it is full of ugly and snide references to gays and lesbians. Moreover, it attacks the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF), a major Hispanic civil rights organization, apparently because some of its staff have chosen to marry people of other faiths.

These manifestations of hate, intolerance, and bigotry should be condemned by all Americans, especially when carried out in the name of fighting discrimination and oppression against our community. All Americans of conscience should know that this site is the work of a tiny, fringe group and does not reflect the opinions and feelings of the overwhelming majority of Latinos in this country.


I fully agree with La Raza on this issue. Don't you?


So they disavow links to this "fringe" group and you expect the rest of the nation to fall for it. I have seen people from your side of the isle try and link the Republican party with groups like the KKK and no matter what is said, you people still buy the link and publish it as often as possible.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 08:34 am
Baldimo wrote:
So they disavow links to this "fringe" group and you expect the rest of the nation to fall for it. I have seen people from your side of the isle try and link the Republican party with groups like the KKK and no matter what is said, you people still buy the link and publish it as often as possible.

This says far more about you than it does about ebrown or La Raza.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 08:50 am
America is under attack from all sides - fight back folks. Arm yourself with truth, and high powered weaponry.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 09:11 am
cjhsa wrote:
America is under attack from all sides - fight back folks. Arm yourself with truth, and high powered weaponry.

It's ok shiksa many of us here on a2k recognise that you have not ventured much beyond the sand box and swing set of the world you live in. There may be some posters here you think you are just a full-blown twinky and have little taste for "uniqueness" but many of us recognise that people such as Idi Amin, Ted Nugent, Jeffrey Dahmer and Richard Nixon are just "different" and need compassion and wide sidewalks.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 09:28 am
DrewDad wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
So they disavow links to this "fringe" group and you expect the rest of the nation to fall for it. I have seen people from your side of the isle try and link the Republican party with groups like the KKK and no matter what is said, you people still buy the link and publish it as often as possible.

This says far more about you than it does about ebrown or La Raza.


How so?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Mar, 2007 05:35 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
the president of La Raza wrote:

STATEMENT OF RAUL YZAGUIRRE, NCLR PRESIDENT ON LA VOZ DE AZTLAN

Washington, DC - Recently the National Council of La Raza (NCLR) became aware of a website and other information that is being circulated on the Internet by La Voz de Aztlan. The phrases the site frequently uses, "La Raza de Aztlan" or "La Raza," are generic terms that many use to refer to Mexican American people in this country. NCLR has no connection whatsoever to the website or its sponsoring group.

I am issuing this somewhat unusual statement because, after a cursory review of the website, I found it to be full of reprehensible and bigoted references toward a number of communities - in particular, to the Jewish American community. No responsible Latino organization or leader of my acquaintance agrees with the misinformation being dispensed on the site, nor do I know of any who concur with the grotesque stereotypes that appear in many of its alleged "articles." This site purports to be an "advocacy clearinghouse" for the Mexican American community, but it is anything but that. Its rhetoric is completely antithetical to anyone truly committed to civil rights for all in this nation - it not only disparages Jews, it is full of ugly and snide references to gays and lesbians. Moreover, it attacks the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF), a major Hispanic civil rights organization, apparently because some of its staff have chosen to marry people of other faiths.

These manifestations of hate, intolerance, and bigotry should be condemned by all Americans, especially when carried out in the name of fighting discrimination and oppression against our community. All Americans of conscience should know that this site is the work of a tiny, fringe group and does not reflect the opinions and feelings of the overwhelming majority of Latinos in this country.


I fully agree with La Raza on this issue. Don't you?


IF the President of La Raza is telling the truth,then I will agree with him.

But,you neglected to comment on what professor Truxillo said,why is that??

Baldimo said...

Quote:
So they disavow links to this "fringe" group and you expect the rest of the nation to fall for it. I have seen people from your side of the isle try and link the Republican party with groups like the KKK and no matter what is said, you people still buy the link and publish it as often as possible.


Now,this statement is partially correct.
You and others have constantly accused conservatives of being racist or of being hatemongers because of groups like the Klan,even though EVERY conservative has disavowed them and any connection to them.

You refuse to accept that,so wht should we accept it when you say it?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Mar, 2007 05:38 pm
Quote:

even though EVERY conservative has disavowed them and any connection to them


LOL
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Mar, 2007 09:15 pm
mysteryman wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
the president of La Raza wrote:

STATEMENT OF RAUL YZAGUIRRE, NCLR PRESIDENT ON LA VOZ DE AZTLAN

.....The phrases the site frequently uses, "La Raza de Aztlan" or "La Raza," are generic terms that many use to refer to Mexican American people in this country.[/b]


I fully agree with La Raza on this issue. Don't you?


IF the President of La Raza is telling the truth,then I will agree with him.

But,you neglected to comment on what professor Truxillo said,why is that??




hi mystery, how are ya ?

it is true that the main focus of la raza (the organization) is a rights advocacy group, at least from what i know of them. also, "la raza" is a generic phrase, meaning "the people" to hispanics.

regarding truxillo; don't know of him.

but, i have heard over the years the same kind of stuff from a few people i've known. it's really only been noticable over the last 10 or 15 years to me.

generally, i assign that talk to the same type of people that run around plastered in confederate battle flags yellin' "hell no, i won't fergit! the south'll risssssee again!" :wink:

calderon's stance is something new. something that never gets talked about is the effect that the loss of massive numbers of nationals is having on mexico. smaller towns and villages are losing upwards of 50% of their folks.

where does that leave the people that continue to live there? can't be good.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 05:47 pm
Hey DTOM,
Good to see ya!!!

I understand what Calderon is saying,and it troubles me a little bit.

To hear that he thinks the US should invest in Mexico to keep Mexican citizens there surprises me.

He seems to be saying that the US should fix Mexico's economy,and I gotta ask when did that become our job?

Also,wouldnt we then be accused of meddling or interfering in another countries internal affairs?

Assuming we go along with Calderons plan,would the US firms that invest in Mexico be allowed to have US citizens running the Mexican operations?
Would those companies be allowed to control how their money is spent,and by whom?

There are to many questions to be answered.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 07:27 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Hey DTOM,
Good to see ya!!!

I understand what Calderon is saying,and it troubles me a little bit.

To hear that he thinks the US should invest in Mexico to keep Mexican citizens there surprises me.

He seems to be saying that the US should fix Mexico's economy,and I gotta ask when did that become our job?

Also,wouldnt we then be accused of meddling or interfering in another countries internal affairs?

Assuming we go along with Calderons plan,would the US firms that invest in Mexico be allowed to have US citizens running the Mexican operations?
Would those companies be allowed to control how their money is spent,and by whom?

There are to many questions to be answered.


i see what ya mean. however, it would be worthwhile, i think, both socially and politically to help mexico out a bit more.

why?

socially, i really just don't see that it's good for either mexico or the u.s. to have the massive migration of nationals bailing out in such a relatively short period of time. there's been a lot of discussion so far about the effect of what amounts to "dumping" cheap labor on the native born and naturalized american worker (which despite what some say, has had a negative impact on wages. and not just at the bottom.), but like i mentioned, some areas of mexico (and other latin american countries) are really getting dinged by the loss of workers, unskilled and professional alike.

i can't remember when you said you left california, but it's pretty apparent to me in discussions i have with most of the mexicans (and others) that other than the better wages here, they'd rather be home in mexico if they had their druthers. sounds natural to me.

so it seems like the best way to satisfy the needs of both of our countries is to give calderon (seemingly the first non-socialist type mexican presidente) some help transforming what is an otherwise perfectly viable country from a struggling former empire holding to a 21st century nation.
unlike that other place we won't mention, mexico has a genuine unique national identity.

as far as whether or not investing branches of american companies would be run solely by americans there, i couldn't say. but it would probably be of a better purpose to recruit successful mexicans to perform most of the managerial and administrative with tight oversight by folks from the "home office" for a while to get them trained up. then hold the locals accountable for performance and profitability. a couple of corporations that i've had to deal with followed that model to pretty good results, although they are not "mega-corps".

that might also be helpful in avoiding accusations of meddling by yankee imperialists. Very Happy

politically, leftist or socialist or communist (or whatever) types like chavez are gaining popularity again down south.

and what do they always use as a sales pitch ? "those bastard americans are down here screwing us again!" it keeps working too, because nearly all of the aid that gets sent down there winds up going into the war on drugs.

for a lot of people in poor countries, the only way to get by is some degree of invilvement in drug cultivation or distribution. if we do send down the cia, military detachments and contractors to irradicate drug crops without making a realistic determination of what types of new crops the same locals can be involved in and thrive, seeing that they can make a better and honest living, then all those folks will see id that we simply took away their livelyhood. i guess that's piss me off a little too.

so when some guy shows up with his rhetoric, he has a captive audience. it costs him little to spread a little cash with the local bigshots (which is all they care about anyway. little pond, big fish) and even less to toss out some frijoles and tortillas to the others. and viola, he's an instant hero. now he's the one that gets to exploit them.

too me, that's why south america keeps having false starts.

we (and other countries) have been just enough to get the door open and then taking off. that's still a lot of money, but frankly i rather see the money that we've given to a lot of other countries do some good closer to home.

sorry if this is a little disjointed, but i'm on a tight schedule tonight (ms. dtom has a honey-do list for me.. Laughing ).

any thoughts ?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 01:45 pm
Quote:
For ADL, another mission
Group will combat anti-immigrant bias

The Anti-Defamation League of New England, saying that hostility toward immigrants represents a growing form of intolerance, is making the fight against anti-immigrant sentiment a significant focus of the 60-year-old organization.

Leaders of the ADL, which is known primarily for its efforts to combat anti-Semitism, say they are alarmed at the animus toward immigrants that seems to be surfacing as the debate over securing the country's borders intensifies.

Andrew Tarsy, regional director of the ADL of New England, said recent events in immigrant communities around Boston demonstrate the urgency for more activism.

"We fight against bigotry in all forms," Tarsy said. "It has become clear both in the extremist world and even in the mainstream that the conversation about immigrants is laced with bigotry."

...



Full Article
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 04:39 pm
just curious, e.b.

do you believe that there is any racist prejudice directed at native born americans (white,black,red,brown etc.) by those who enter the u.s. illegally or their advocates ?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 04:58 pm
DTOM,

If you are asking if immigrants who enter the u.s. illegal or their advocates are capable of racist predjudice... then of course the answer is yes.

Racism involves predjudicial stereotypes and defamation based on mistruths. Racism is used to justify hatred and hateful acts directed at a specific ethnic group.

There is a problem with anti-semitism among a part of the Latin-American population (and thus among immigrants legal and illegal). Someone I know gave me and my wife 9/11 conspiracy theory tapes that implicated the Jews which I found very offensive. I challenged this the way I challenge any racism.

Political argument and ideas rely on racial or ethnic stereotypes and promote hatred with half-truths and slander are wrong.

This is what the ADL and others are challenging in the immigration debate.

If you are saying that anyone who advocates for immigrants is a racist. That is just ridiculous.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 05:47 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
DTOM,

If you are asking if immigrants who enter the u.s. illegal or their advocates are capable of racist predjudice... then of course the answer is yes. ....

.....If you are saying that anyone who advocates for immigrants is a racist. That is just ridiculous.


1) the first line is what i wanted to know. but you didn't really answer in a completely honest way. perhaps i asked it the wrong way.... let's try this...

"have you experienced, seen or heard racists rhetoric or actions by those we're talking about ?"

2) the second line is not what i was saying at all.

see, although there are racists who are against illegal immigration, they are generally against any immigration, by anyone from anywhere.

they are a distinct minority.

the problem i have with some of your comments is that it appears that you believe that all racism eminates from white americans or other "white" people. but that is far from the truth.

anyone who lives in an area with a heavy and diverse immigrant population knows that racism and discrimination come in every ethnic and national flavor. it's not a purely anglo-saxon byproduct. perhaps thats not what you believe, but most often, you certainly sound that way.

an example ? you are fond of using the phrase "nativist". although it has much older roots, the way that you tend to use it heavily conotates that those "nativists" are all waspy americans. not all white americans belong to the aryan brotherhood or the church of the creator ya know..

the other thing is that you seem to believe that all illegal immigrants are from south of the rio grande. of course that makes it much easier to use racism as a charge against people that don't like people sneaking into the country undocumented. but the notion that all illegals are hispanic is quite inaccurate. the first person i ever met who was an illegal alien was not hispanic, but irish. and that was over 30 years ago. being that i'm half scots-irish, it would indeed be a stretch that my disapproval of his status was based on racism. by the way, he, willie, got deported.

frankly, you've made enough comments that i believe i understand your situation, and yea, i feel for you and yours.

but when you try to reduce any and all arguments against illegal entry into the states to a simple case of "racists hatin' them mezkins", it is offputting and makes someone like me, who generally is compassionate about the situation less inclined to want to give in much to "the cause".

and i know i'm not the only one. see what i'm sayin' to ya ?
0 Replies
 
 

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