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Aircraft Crashes into NY Building

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 01:09 pm
I will say the disgustingly salacious implication offered by one member here seems to stand incontravertably at odds with known facts pertaining to the incident aircraft's occupants.
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 01:14 pm
cjhsa wrote:
For the record I chatted with four other pilots on this issue, two private and two commercial, and they all said the same thing. Either a mechanical or a mile high (a very low mile high).

So, insult me if you will. I could care less.


I think you mean you could NOT care less.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Some like to be objective and not rush to conclusions.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 01:18 pm
cjhsa, you do know that, contrary to early reports, the flight instructor who was flying with Lidle was a man, right? Or are you adding accusations that (married) Lidle was gay to your offensive little stew?
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 01:57 pm
I hope those two commercial pilots don't fly for a national passenger airline. If that is all they can come up with in agreement with the unnamed member Shocked
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dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 01:09 am
timberlandko wrote:
It of course is possible the plane ran out of fuel

speculation as valid at this time as a mile high incident.

timberlandko wrote:
but my thinking now leans toward fuel delivery failure or engine ignition failure

again speculation based on as much info as cj used.

timberlandko wrote:
Few things are less reliable than eyewitness reports/
Quote:

timberlandko wrote:
Judging from witness reports, allowing for excitement, unfamiliarity and imprecision, it appears the plane was flying in a manner other than would be expected - lower and slower than customary for the circumstances, evidently maneuvering in a manner I would take to be as indicating control difficulties


You just said eyewitness reports were notoriously unreliable.

timberlandko wrote:
I believe, at present, a combination of system failure and pilot error are to blame

again speculation and only speculation based on nothing material

I have to say when I read the report about the instructor being female a similar thought to cj's crossed my mind. I dismissed the thought as insensitive and unfounded based as it was on only my own naughty, boy thoughts.

cj you can think whatever you want, but as they say loose lips sink ships.
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 05:11 am
It is amazing what some people turn their thoughts to when tragedy strikes.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 05:30 am
Apparently, Lidle was in the plane with his flight instructor. The men, their wives and families had been together on a trip to NY. The families were going home by commercial aircraft, while Lidle and his instructor were to be taking 4 days to get across the continent in the small plane.

What a tragedy. Two families destroyed!
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 06:22 am
OK, earlier reports said the instructor was female. I'm not trying to insinuate Lidle was gay by any means, so I withdraw my comments. Apologies to Timber as well.

Now, it will be very interesting to find out exactly what did happen.

Hopefully this tragedy or act of incompetence or whatever it was won't harm general aviation, one of the last bastions of free spirits.
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 06:47 am
Some people just don't get it. The revulsion was not over whether the instructor was a man or a woman. The revulsion was over the insensitive and yes, idiotic comment made in the first place.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 11:50 am
Some may have already seen this article, but for those who haven't -

NY Times article about the flight instructor, with commentary from a variety of pilots

A clip from the article -

Aviator Was Skilled, but in Unfamiliar Skies
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 12:40 pm
Another NYT article - Mentions details not consistent with stall.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 01:13 pm
OK - below, we have the Air Chart segment showing the area of Lidle's flight - I've picked out in red the pertinent stuff; the narrow VFR corridor (the narrow solid blue line inside the red box), and its Northern dead end. The entire width of the gap between the two sections of skyline - buildings - flanking the river is around 2000 feet, less than half a mile.

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/299/corridorje9.jpg

While some sort of equipment failure still cannot be ruled out as contributory, looking at this leads me to suspect pilot error even more strongly as a major factor. According to FAA reports, the plane was flying Northward along the corridor at around 700 feet, then, at or very near the "Dead End", performed a sharp retrace ("U-Turn") maneuver during which the plane descended below radar - "dropping off the scope". Since the building was struck about 350 feet above street level, it is reasonable to conclude the plane continued to loose altitude as it performed its retrace maneuver. Now, folks used to viewing the world through a ground-bound vehicle's windshield may have difficulty with this concept, but in an airplane, what you see out the windows is governed by the plane's attitude. In a steeply banked turn, it is not only conceivable but highly likely the plane's occupants could not see the building as they closed on it; the cabin's roof would have been in the way.

Also, it is not at all uncommon - in fact it is notably characteristic - for a rookie pilot performing a sharp turn to loose altitude through the maneuver. While eyewitness reports from uninformed individuals indeed are unreliable, when multiple reports consistently highlight something in the same manner - in this case engine sound and the plane's apparent control difficulties, it is reasonable to conclude something is behind the similarities.

I now think what happened is that the plane attempted a "U-Turn" at the end of the corridor, its occupants lost sight of the obstructions toward wich they were traveling, at something in the vicinity of 110MPH (per radar track info before contact was lost) - a few hundred feet goes by real quick at around 100MPH; a second equates to just short of 1500 feet of travel. By the time they realized, if ever they realized, they were lined up on the building, it was too late by far to do anything about it, whether or not everything about the plane otherwise was functioning normally.

I'm still puzzled about a few things - one thing that just doesn't seem to make sense to me is why Stanger would have gone along with the idea of entering that corridor in the first place. Apparently, it was not a flight track with which Stanger was familiar - one very credible source indicates Stanger's flight log shows only one entry, a few years back, for that corridor, so apparently it was a route with which he was not particularly familiar. The route in well known to local pilots as not one to be attempted without considerable experience; I'm not familiar with it myself, but from what I've gathered, its a route avoided by most private pilots, an often crowded route flown mostly by well experienced commercial sightseeing and local transportation pilots.

Short version: with or without equipment failure, it appears to me at this point that pilot error was a major, perhaps primary, factor. Did the plane attempt too sharp a turn, bringing on a stall? Very, very possibly, and if so, opportunity for correcting things would have been even more severely limited, as the plane would not have been fully under control - a very, very bad thing to have happen when there isn't much air between plane and terrain.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 01:22 pm
I think you may have an extra zero in that feet of travel/sec estimate. That seems high, but the rest is very plausible. I always hated high wing aircraft because the wing blocked your view of the direction of travel during a turn.
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flyboy804
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 01:24 pm
Correct or incorrect (and I lean toward correct) an excellent post, Timber.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 01:27 pm
Was Lidle's plane a high wing design?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 01:27 pm
You're right about the extra zero - carelessness and lack of preview on my part - sorry.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 01:29 pm
timberlandko wrote:
You're right about the extra zero - carelessness and lack of preview on my part - sorry.


No need, I just drive really fast and that seemed like a large number of feet in a second. Smile
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 01:36 pm
BTW - the Cirrus is not a high-wing design. That doesn't mean the cabin's roof doesn't block vision of whatever is on the other side of it from the plane's occupants, which would likely be a factor in a steeply banked turn.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 02:51 pm
For any who might be interested, a bit on timber's airtoy (which IS a high-wing type) may be found HERE
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 05:21 pm
Gee- these tough guys scare me to death. Mi knees is knocking. I'm in a muck sweat as Bella Cohen said.

Is testosterone addictive?
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