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Aircraft Crashes into NY Building

 
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 07:12 am
snood wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
I bet Lidle was getting a Monica from the "female flight instructor". As said before, "flying while terminally stupid".


Damn, man. What the hell is wrong with you? The guy just dies, and this is what you've got to say?


I am a pilot. The guy flew into a building. He broke every rule in the book to do so if there wasn't a mechanical. He scared NYC half to death. They scrambled fighter jets all over north America because of it.

What the hell is wrong with you?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 07:14 am
Intrepid wrote:

I couldn't believe my eyes either when I read that. Then, I looked at who posted it. It became clearer as to why such an absurd and insensitive thing was said.


Yes.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 07:17 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Intrepid wrote:

I couldn't believe my eyes either when I read that. Then, I looked at who posted it. It became clearer as to why such an absurd and insensitive thing was said.


Yes.

Yes
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 07:24 am
What we have here is a bunch of people posting with bleeding hearts.

What of the folks that idiot endangered in the building? Or the firefighters?

I feel for his family, but not for him.

Think about this. He hit the 30th floor (it was labeled the 40th so folks think they live higher up than they do). That is only about 300 feet in the air. But few here understand what that means.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 07:28 am
cjhsa wrote:
What we have here is a bunch of people posting with bleeding hearts.

What of the folks that idiot endangered in the building? Or the firefighters?

I feel for his family, but not for him.

Think about this. He hit the 30th floor (it was labeled the 40th so folks think they live higher up than they do). That is only about 300 feet in the air. But few here understand what that means.


I think everybody knows what that means. It means the plane was at a low altitude when it crashed. The reason for the crash is being investigated and it could be months before they have any real idea of what happened.

Why is someone labelled an idiot because they crashed. Unless you have powers that we are unaware of, you do not know either.

Nobody else is speculating until some facts are in. You, in your childish manner, have to make something dirty out of it. Your politics should not come into this tragedy. Neither should your filthy thoughts.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 07:31 am
I don't call this childish, like Intrepid does.

I call it with words which certainly would be against the TOS and usually aren't how I speak.

But on the other hand, people like that poster wouldn't even notice that.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 07:47 am
cjhsa, even if that's your point -- which as Intrepid says is far more obvious than you seem to think -- you could just state your point plainly instead of the blithely obnoxious way you chose.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 07:55 am
Politics? I posted about politics?
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 08:27 am
cjhsa wrote:
snood wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
I bet Lidle was getting a Monica from the "female flight instructor". As said before, "flying while terminally stupid".


Damn, man. What the hell is wrong with you? The guy just dies, and this is what you've got to say?


I am a pilot. The guy flew into a building. He broke every rule in the book to do so if there wasn't a mechanical. He scared NYC half to death. They scrambled fighter jets all over north America because of it.

What the hell is wrong with you?


Huh?

Can they determine the actual cause before you label the flight instructer and pilot as the cause of the crash?

It is amazing how poeple, especially the media, jumped all over this and have tried to lay blame before any of the facts are in.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 10:11 am
I think he was a risk taker. Risk takers make lousy pilots.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/133-02232006-617052.html
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 10:57 am
No sense getting all wound up over that sorta disgusting "Hey! Look at me!" crap - just consider the source and act appropriately - take a mental shower, conceptually disinfect your monitor, and get on with things. Responding to, even just discussing, such despicable posturing merely encourages the perpetrator to persist in reprehensible behavior. Its what trolls live for.

OK - showered up and towelled off, now back to yesterday's tragic accident. Few things are less reliable than eyewitness reports, particularly when the witnesses are unfamiliar with the technicalities of what they've seen - or think they've seen. As examples in this instance, there were conflicting reports as to whether a plane or helicopter had hit the building, what the aircraft had been doing immediately prior to the crash, where on the building the impact occured, the number of dead and injured, even the gender of the plane's occupants. However, in this case, one item keeps coming up - one way or another, witnesses one after another have said something about the plane's engine sound being somehow "not right".

The plane involved, N929CD, was of recent design and build, the product of a respected, competent manufacturer, of a type known for safety, reliability, and ease of handling, and which particular aircraft's maintenance log apparently was up to date and fully in order. There has been speculation the aircraft ran out of fuel; as a pilot myself, I would be surprised (though not flabbergasted) should that prove to be the case, as the plane, which had been in the air only a short time, not more than half an hour, has a range of over 750 miles, some 5+ hours of flight time at its rated cruise speed and altitude, about two-thirds to perhaps half that at low altitude and maximum speed depending on atmospheric conditions.

It of course is possible the plane ran out of fuel, but given that the plane's other occupant, beside student pilot Lidle, was fully licensed, multiply certified, well experienced flight instructor and licensed, multiply certified Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic, Tyler Stanger, owner of Stang-Air Services (website has been taken down - Google Cache should be available for a while), the notion that a standard prefilight fuel check might not have been made beggars the imagination. Additionally, the nature and volume of fire at the crash scene was, to my estimation, inconsistent with the notion the plane's fuel tank was anywhere near empty. Mebbe - but it seems to me doubtful in the extreme.

On the other hand, even though the plane was relatively new, with long-proven-reliable engine, standard, off-the shelf electrical and mechanical systems, in good repair, with all maintenance checked off, electrical or mechanical failure cannot be discounted - particularly in light of witness reports pertaining to engine sound. I'm no crash investigator, and I have no info not available to anyone else in the general public, but my thinking now leans toward fuel delivery failure or engine ignition failure, either of which could be the result of either or both mechanical and/or electrical subsystem failure.

I do question the wisdom of flying in such close proximity to walls of the concrete canyons of a city as obviously that plane did ... not my idea of a good idea, whatever the weather. The weather in this instance, as far as I can tell, was perfectly acceptable for visual rules flight; visibility, temperature, windspeed, temperature, and ceiling all were well within the requirements. Untill the plane was lost to radar, it was apparently performing nominally and, though flying at low altitude along the river it was not outside of authorized airspace, not dangerously close to buildings - sightseeing flights travel that route all the time, and have done so just about since the advent of aviation ... nothing remarkable there, and nothing I haven't done myself.

Never the less, for some reason, the plane hit a building. Judging from witness reports, allowing for excitement, unfamiliarity and imprecision, it appears the plane was flying in a manner other than would be expected - lower and slower than customary for the circumstances, evidently maneuvering in a manner I would take to be as indicating control difficulties. It is unclear whether a distress call was issued - reports conflict, and I've not come across anything I'd consider conclusive in that regard. A loss of power easily could explain both the plane's witness-reported engine sound and evidently unstable flight characteristics, though I find quite puzzling the plane's proximity to buildings. Still, in the air, when things go wrong, they go wrong in a hurry, and the less airspeed and altitude you have when things start going wrong the less you can do about whatever went wrong and the less time you have to do anything, period.

I'm at a loss to explain why if the plane lost airworthiness the pilot(s) might have elected to not ditch in the river. Not a fun thing to do, of course, but wiser, IMO, than heading over, or as in this case into, a thicket of tall buildings. That part is really wierd to me, but I wasn't there.
I believe, at present, a combination of system failure and pilot error are to blame. Crash investigations are incredibly sophisticated and thorough; it is highly likely we will learn what actually happened, almost in second-by-second detail. Until then, we have informed conjecture, and we have the blatherings of idiots. Take what you find, and draw your own conclusion as to which is which.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 11:13 am
Good Analysis and quite objective.

As a pilot, can you consider the following.....

Airspace around Manhatten is restricted in certain areas. From what I heard, anything along the East River, north of the 59th St Bridge (possible further north) is restricted due to the close proximity to Laguardia Airport airspace.

It appears, the pilot had begun to make a "u-turn" once he hit that area north of 59th st. I may be wrong, but the plane hit the north side of the building.

Is it possible the plane malfunctioned trying to attempt a tight turn? Stalled, lost power?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 11:13 am
Thanks timber!

(Somehow this reminds my of the numerous road accidents when cars crash exactly at the only tree, fence, wall etc ...)
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 11:32 am
woiyo wrote:
Is it possible the plane malfunctioned trying to attempt a tight turn? Stalled, lost power?

Very possible - almost without doubt what happened, though why it happened remains undetermined. Pilot error? Mebbe (perhaps even likely at least a contributing factor), dunno yet. Fuel exhaustion? Mebbe - unlikely, but possible no matter how improbable- dunno yet. Mechanical or electricalfailure of some sort? Mebbe, dunno yet. Too steep a bank, too tight a turn, scrubbing off too much airspeed or cancelling too much lift to permit maintaining control? Mebbe, dunno yet. Abruptness of maneuver momentarily inhibiting fuel flow, causing loss of power compounding other negative factors? Mebbe, dunno yet. Some combination of those? Mebbe - dunno yet but a combination of factors likely came into play; most often the case when "it all goes wrong". I strongly doubt there was any "one cause", and I expect we'll know much more as the investigation gets to wherever it leads.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 11:35 am
timberlandko wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Is it possible the plane malfunctioned trying to attempt a tight turn? Stalled, lost power?

Very possible - almost without doubt what happened, though why it happened remains undetermined. Pilot error? Mebbe (perhaps even likely at least a contributing factor), dunno yet. Mechanical or electricalfailure of some sort? Mebbe, dunno yet. Too steep a bank, too tight a turn, scrubbing off too much airspeed or cancelling to much lift? Mebbe, dunno yet. Abruptness of maneuver momentarily inhibiting fuel flow, causing loss of power compounding other negative factors? Mebbe, dunno yet. Some combination of those? Mebbe - dunno yet but a combination of factors likely came into play; most often the case when "it all goes wrong". I strongly doubt there was any "one cause", and I expect we'll know much more as the investigation gets to wherever it leads.


What will be amazing is that somehow, through all the wreckage, they will figure this out.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 12:25 pm
One more piece of the puzzle drops into place, though it doesn't provide much help figuring out the picture - FAA via New York City's WNBC-TV News: No Distress call from Lidle's Plane

A reasonable conjecture: whatever happened came on very suddenly and both pilots were very busy in the moments immediately prior to the crash.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 12:37 pm
Yea, that's what makes me lean towards some catastrophic mechanical failure of some sort.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 12:42 pm
timberlandko wrote:

A reasonable conjecture: whatever happened came on very suddenly and both pilots were very busy in the moments immediately prior to the crash.


That I will agree with!

Thanks for your ringing endorsement Timber. You took what I said and added a whole lot more words. I appreciate it.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 12:47 pm
For the record I chatted with four other pilots on this issue, two private and two commercial, and they all said the same thing. Either a mechanical or a mile high (a very low mile high).

So, insult me if you will. I could care less.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 12:50 pm
Shocked
0 Replies
 
 

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