In the 70s, some friends of mine an i went to Mexico. They were members of an informal biker club, some of whom had gone to Mexico every year since the late 1960s. In 1978, we drove from the St. Louis area to Texas, picked up a friend of mine, and drove from Houston to Monterrey. From there, we drove to Zacatecas, then on to Guadalajara. We spent a very pleasant week in Guadalajara, and then drove on to the Pacific coast.
They knew of a small resort town, with a perfect half-moon, white sand beach, which was frequented by Mexicans, and therefore very inexpensive by our standards. One day we went into a cantina and ordered lunch. There was a little girl serving the tables--about 12 or 13--and Mamacita in the back making tortillas by hand, and cooking the other food. None of us spoke Spanish, although i knew some words. I held up three fingers and said: Tres cerbezas Carta Blanca (i don't apologize for my poor Spanish, and its part of the story). Then i spread the fingers of one hand, and held up another finger, saying: Sece tacos. She brought us three beers and six tacos, and a bowl of salsa (the latter was a given). The tacos contained only pulled pork. So, i again ordered three beers, and then held up six fingers, saying: Sece tacos con frijoles--thinking that they'd add beans to the tacos. So she brought three more beers, and six tacos, containing only beans. So, i gave it one more try--i ordered three more beers (hey, we were on vacation), and six tacos--con frijoles y con carne. So she brought us three beers, and six tacos with beans, and six tacos with meat--her eyes were very big as she contemplated the incredible appetites of the Gringos.
We laughed, ate the food, drank the beer, paid the bill and left a good tip. The next day, we went back to that cantina. I held up my hand, and then ordered three bears, and said "frijoles." She brought the beer, and a big bowl of beans, with a bowl of salsa. Then i asked for "carne." A light went on for her, she smiled, nodded, and brought a bowl of pulled pork, and a stack of fresh tortillas. We made our own tacos, and had a good meal and a good time. We left her a generous tip. Attitude is everything in such transactions.
McGentrix wrote: They didn't want to be Polish Americans, just Americans.
You should have been in Chicago five weeks ago at the Polish Constitution Day :wink:
Walter Hinteler wrote:McGentrix wrote: They didn't want to be Polish Americans, just Americans.
You should have been in Chicago five weeks ago at the Polish Constitution Day :wink:
I speak only for my wife's family Walt.
Btw: before Columbus, roughly 300 languages were spoken in what is now the USA.
Today, almost half of those are extinct. And many project that in another 50 years only 20 indigenous North American languages will be alive and spoken.
Phoenix32890 wrote: I disagree, being a 2nd generation American. The immigrants may have spoken their native tongue in their ethnic neighborhoods, but if they wanted to vote, if they wanted to drive, they needed to know English. True, their English might have not been excellent, but they knew enough to get by. In the meantime, their kids were learning English in school.
I am sure that people paid for their own translators 100 years ago, and that they had no statutory rights to conduct their business with the government in foreign languages. But are you saying that in an ethnic neighborhood where most people spoke, say, Italian, the businesses printing IDs woudn't? The people registring voters wouldn't? The policemen administring the driving test wouldn't? I find that very hard to believe. But I admit I can't prove you wrong, and that finding solid information would take more research than I currently want to do.
I agree with Phoenix. I don't understand how Walter sees encouraging immigrants to learn English as 'socially oppressive'.
How many teachers, scientists, attorneys, engineers, etc etc from other countries are living and working in the U.S. who have refused to learn English?
SierraSong wrote:I agree with Phoenix. I don't understand how Walter sees encouraging immigrants to learn English as 'socially oppressive'.
I didn'z mention with a single word "learning English" nor point at this (at least, I didn't intend to do so at all).
My remark was just about what some Republicns (and others, here, and obviously you, too) understand as "official language".
Learning English is something totally different, and official languages aren't "bad" per se - as said, minority languages are especially promoted in countries with offical language(s).
SierraSong wrote: How many teachers, scientists, attorneys, engineers, etc etc from other countries are living and working in the U.S. who have refused to learn English?
I don't know, but I do know plenty of such people, plus a handful of soldiers, who come from America, live in Germany, and never learn German. Expatriate Americans typically couldn't have a "for German, press 1" button, because speaking German with them is simply not an option. Maybe that's why I'm having trouble feeling McGentrix's, Phoenix's, and Foxfyre's pain.
(Ask Walter what his experiences with Americans abroad were. I predict they were quite similar.)
Agree to both of what Thomas said.
Walter Hinteler wrote:SierraSong wrote:I agree with Phoenix. I don't understand how Walter sees encouraging immigrants to learn English as 'socially oppressive'.
I didn'z mention with a single word "learning English" nor point at this (at least, I didn't intend to do so at all).
My remark was just about what some Republicns (and others, here, and obviously you, too) understand as "official language".
Learning English is something totally different, and official languages aren't "bad" per se - as said, minority languages are especially promoted in countries with offical language(s).
Here in America, when "official language" is referred to , that means government documents, applications, legal proceedings, etc, would be done in English. We would need to have every form written in multiple languages.
It is not a demand for anyone to speak English, just that "official" forms, etc would be written in English.
I hope that clears any confuson up.
Thomas wrote:SierraSong wrote: How many teachers, scientists, attorneys, engineers, etc etc from other countries are living and working in the U.S. who have refused to learn English?
I don't know, but I do know plenty of such people, plus a handful of soldiers, who come from America, live in Germany, and never learn German. Expatriate Americans typically couldn't have a "for German, press 1" button, because speaking German with them is simply not an option. Maybe that's why I'm having trouble feeling McGentrix's, Phoenix's, and Foxfyre's pain.
(Ask Walter what his experiences with Americans abroad were. I predict they were quite similar.)
I am not sure what you mean here Thomas. When someone call customer service in Germany, are you first greeted by someone asking you to press eine for Deutcsh?
Thomas wrote:SierraSong wrote: How many teachers, scientists, attorneys, engineers, etc etc from other countries are living and working in the U.S. who have refused to learn English?
I don't know, but I do know plenty of such people, plus a handful of soldiers, who come from America, live in Germany, and never learn German. Expatriate Americans typically couldn't have a "for German, press 1" button, because speaking German with them is simply not an option. Maybe that's why I'm having trouble feeling McGentrix's, Phoenix's, and Foxfyre's pain.
(Ask Walter what his experiences with Americans abroad were. I predict they were quite similar.)
Would any immigrants in Germany be successful in obtaining good jobs there without learning German, do you think?
McGentrix wrote:Here in America, when "official language" is referred to , that means government documents, applications, legal proceedings, etc, would be done in English. We would need to have every form written in multiple languages.
It is not a demand for anyone to speak English, just that "official" forms, etc would be written in English.
I hope that clears any confuson up.
Well, in that case, isn't English already the official language?
Do we speak here about immigration ot "Official Language"?
I know at least thre US-Americans here in my hometown, working for a big firm, who are here since two years now (leaving next/this month) and don't even speak rudimetnarily German - both on the "higher middle management" level.
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:McGentrix wrote:Here in America, when "official language" is referred to , that means government documents, applications, legal proceedings, etc, would be done in English. We would need to have every form written in multiple languages.
It is not a demand for anyone to speak English, just that "official" forms, etc would be written in English.
I hope that clears any confuson up.
Well, in that case, isn't English already the official language?
No, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Should one assume that when a deaf or hearing-impaired person is provided with a sign-language interpreter during an official proceeding, that this represents an unacceptable concession to what is patently not the means of communication of the majority of American citizens?
Phoenix32890 wrote:I would suspect that the cop administering the road test might have spoken Italian to the person taking the test, if the policeman were Italian. But he might not have been Italian, and the written driving test would have been in English.
Or maybe the testee would have asked for another cop? I got myself some information material a few weeks ago in St.Louis, MO; the process seems to be pretty informal, and I'd think something like that would have been possible.
PHoenix32890 wrote:The poll workers might have spoken Italian to their neighbors, but the voting machine instructions would have been written in English.
Did they vote with machines 100 years ago? I guess they would have voted on paper. And you can always have the instructions explained by a volunteer. At least that has been my experience when I visited New York around November 20, 2004, when I wanted to check out those famous machines. (That was when you were still a Bush voter, remember?) Even though I
didn't intend to vote, and even though the place was somewhat crowded, the volunteers took five minutes to explain them to me. They were proud of their stuff and relished showing it off. (Needless to say, I could forgive Florida volunteers for being less enthusiastic about their machines.)
Look, I'm not saying that learning English is a bad thing. It's a good thing. I've been known to do it myself. I just don't see the point of
forcing people to learn it. And even if I did, it would still mystify me why this should be a policy priority in America's current political environment.
SierraSong wrote: Would any immigrants in Germany be successful in obtaining good jobs there without learning German, do you think?
As I say, there are plenty of American engineers and scientists at my company. They have good jobs there.
