Mid-life crisis

Do you really believe that? I think nearly everyone here has been encouraging her to get some perspective. That's been a major theme of this whole discussion.



I completely agree. I just think that the "tools" involve things like going to counseling rather than being browbeaten by someone on a message board.

See it however you want, sozobe...

I'm really, really glad we are going to counselling. I'm also glad that it is a male like he wanted, and that the counselor is someone who seems to understand me, as well.

I appreciate everyone who has posted on this thread to me. I am thankful to have opposing opinions and ideas. Some have helped more than others, but all have been helpful, in their own way.

Thanks again to all.

Mame

But everyone needs to find their own truth, their own solutions to an excruciatingly painful situation like this. And different people do it in different ways. What we think she should do is immaterial. Have you noticed that Freedomwolf's perceptions of her husband have changed since the beginning of this thread? You know, she could well decide, down the track, that this marriage is no longer viable for her. But that is up to her to decide. The most useful thing, I think, is for folk here to listen & be supportive & supply useful feedback as she works through this. I honestly don't think anyone is suggesting that she should save her marriage at any cost. I'm certain Freedomwolf is not thinking that, either.

I absolutely agree. In fact, I had the same thought this morning before I read your post, Mame. Right now FreedomElf is in reaction mode. She's trying to breathe, figure out how the hell the ceiling turned into the floor, and wake up tomorrow morning with some sense of what to expect in the coming 24 hours.

You're absolutely right, the time will come when she gets to the anger part. And, if all goes well, her husband will have his head out of his ass by then and will be able to support her in the same way she's supporting him now.

FreedomElf, Tino made a comment above that I let half-pass. When your husband tells you his 'midlife crisis' is nature's way of telling a man that marriage and commitment are unnatural, is just about the time you will flip and let him have it between the eyes. Been there, done that too. As, I'm sure, has Tino's partner.

You will definitely get to the anger part. Don't push it, and don't let me and my experience, or Mame and her crystal ball, tell you when the time is right.



Me too, and so might Mr Elf.

Not me! I'll get the hell outta Dodge!!!














Just kiddin'.

Yeh, I mentioned anger too, here -

"You may be getting angry one of these days, and anger will be at him and at yourself too. Gotta weather all that too."
Tbe anger is long term, will pop up even if you work out understanding each other and both are newly invested. May take a while to uncover it in the first place.

I'll venture that the anger will be complicated, but the rage will be at him.
I just plain don't believe anyone who says they didn't feel anger about this situation (unless they married under open marriage terms, and even then..). But the anger may take even years to surface.

As to my partner's anger it seems that she is expressing it already in the direction of my children, the only problem with that is that I am not going to be here to help her deal with it because I will not let anybody blame my children for what I do.

I was at my kid's house last night when their mother [my ex] called my 13 year old daughter a "trollope".

I was appalled, but I am used to it because my ex has serious personality problems. She always operated in a world of put downs and random anger, it beat the hell out of me I don't mind telling you. I had no self esteem until I went into counselling and was encouraged to dig below the feeling of worthlessness that had enveloped me from being told I was a bad person everyday and that "nobody else would have me", and that everything was my fault all the time.

Some people [more often men, I have to say] look for "victims" to counter there own feelings of worthlessness [I know I'm going slightly off tangent here, but bear with me] and I was a natural for this because I had such an awful childhood. My self-esteem was low to start with, she must have picked up on this, and she was only "nice" until she became pregnant five months into our relationship, then everything started to change.

Anyway, two more kids and eight years later I ended up going into counselling and three months after finally leaving [if I had any self esteem I would never have stayed in an abusive relationship that long, but it's well documented how these things work: you end up feeling like you don't deserve any better. You even make love to the person who is putting you down all the time, which is the ultimate self put-down, if you think about it], but as I say, three months later I met somebody completely wonderful who stood by me against the vicious attempts by my ex to cause disruption, including one attempted physical attack on my new partner [and also including one on me whillst waiting to pick up my son in the school playground], she saw her for what she was and wasn't fooled by the shallow charm that my ex is still so good at putting on in public when she wants to.

So, back to my daughter last night.
I said "You're not a trollope. Don't listen to that!"
The mother: "Shutup you. She is"
My daughter: "Well, I wouldn't be a trollope if I lived with my dad!"
The mother [sneery}: "Your dad doesn't want you either!"

The upshot of all this is I am seriously thinking about moving my daughter in with me. Only this time I am going to do it properly, make the plans, change her school, not like other times when she has been thrown out and her mum has changed her mind a few days later [probably because she realises that it would affect her Social Security benefits!]

So, given all that and "Tino's partner being there and doing that", as JB puts it, there is no future for me and the woman I hurt so much by my infactuation with a 30 year old woman.

I am sorry that it should turn out like this and that we can't even seem to be friends but in an ironic twist I do have to thank her that I am now strong enough to reach a position where I can say "No. This is wrong" and stand by my principles.

I am not prepared to stand by and watch all the self esteem be knocked out of my daughter in the same way that happened to me [and then probably end up with some inadequate bloke who is looking for a victim in years to come!]

I'm sorry if I seem to have got off topic but I wanted to get that off my chest.

Thankyou for your patience, everybody.

Tino, I can certainly understand that you MUST not let your kids be used as a way to get back at you, but don't rule out your partner just yet....at least not if it hasn't been quite a while since the whole event happened.

You probably crushed her ego in such a way that she wants so badly to find a way to lash out at you. Yes, it's wrong, but it is possible she will be sorry for that soon, and realize that she should not use your kids as an outlet for her anger.

Can you talk to her completely about it? Can you tell her how deeply you regret what you did, and how you are positive, without a doubt, that it could never, ever happen again? Did you let her know that the reason you were infatuated had absolutely nothing to do with her adequacy? I suggest you ask your partner to read the Wikipedia definition of "limerence", which is what I believe you had. Perhaps reading a clinical definition of it might help her to understand it. Does she know that you would do anything, short of allowing your kids to be hurt, to win her back because you now know just how precious your relationship was?

If you have said all these things, forgive me for rehashing it. I just think that sometimes, people do really, really stupid things when they are hurt, and she may be doing something really stupid now that she will regret. Are you guys in counselling now?

It's possible that you are right, and that the relationship must end because she won't be able to forgive you. If that is the case, I am truly sorry. I honestly believe that eventually, she will be, too. Good luck, Tino.




I talked with my husband last night, and told him that he was always "larger than life" to me.....a hero, or a superman. Now, he is simply a man. I have no more illusions about him being perfect. He told me that there may come a time when he regrets that, but for now, he is quite relieved, because it always scared him how high I built the pedestal under him.

I also asked him to tell me what would happen if he, her and I were drowning in a lake, and he could only save one of us. He told me that instinctively, he would save me first, even though that situation would "kill him". He also told me that if he had to choose one of us to never see again as long as he lived, his "gut" would tell him to let her go and keep me.....but his mind isn't so sure. I told him that's okay....it's his gut I'm more concerned with, because it doesn't get as confused as the mind can. Still.....I wish his mind weren't so confused.

I know that was a stupid question to ask of him, but the answer did make me feel a little more secure. Lately he is on an "honesty kick" and I do believe he would have told me if the answer were reversed. He said that he sometimes misses her, but that he has not come close to contacting her, and he doesn't think he will. He still can't tell me who he loves more, though, so it is up and down the rollercoaster, as usual. But....I'd say we are slowly making progress.

And to everyone who mentioned the anger thing......I think that there is anger there. Last night I did let it out a bit when hubby sent me a letter in reply to mine. I told him that with as many times as he has told me that she is "so similar to me", he was probably just looking for a "substitute" me to start over with, without the baggage. Then he writes back and says "You know, after thinking about you saying that, I realize that you guys are nothing alike after all. So that's not it."

Well then, why has he told me at least a dozen times that she is so much like me it "scares him"????? He said that he might have just said that to comfort me. HUH??????? Yep.....that made me angry.

I am sure that there is more anger there, but you are right....I am in "survival" mode here. I guess I want to know, once and for all, what he wants and where he is going to stay, before we deal with other issues together. If I know that we will deal with all the emotions together, and still love each other, then I will feel more secure, and eventually be able to close this chapter of our lives.

One day at a time, Tino and FreedomElf. That's all you can do.

Tino, FreedomElf gave you some very good advice. It seems as if you and your partner were making progress toward a reconciliation and you've recently hit another pothole. Keep talking, see where it takes you.

Elf, has the counselor given his opinion on the fact that your husband is sleeping in the guest room? Just curious...

Tico--

I'm confused.

Who was calling your daughter a trollop? Her mother?

I think you might be on target to devote your energy to your children rather than trying to woo a woman who does not want to forgive.

At least when you were with her, you developed a spine.

Off topic? Children and the future of children are never off topic. Besides, the thread is your thread.

Yes, her own mother who I described having the "abusive" relationship with, not my erstwhile partner, she would never say something like that!

As to talking well no we are not talking anymore.

We had an exchange of texts the other day and I'm afraid I got angry precisely because she kept evading the issue of my children...

For example I ended up texting "There's no point talking to you is there. You're not listening"...or words to that effect, and she replied "Kiss me then!"...which I found well, I'm not sure, but undermining, I would say.

I don't know. What do you guys think? Should I just have put this issue aside and invited her over. I do miss her. Yet I felt as though I would have been betraying my kids by kissing someone who has rejected them. The exchange certainly didn't make me feel like kissing her, but now she won't reply to my e-mails and I feel bad. Why is she able to do this to me?

If she said that, then it is obvious that she is hurting badly but still loves you.

You can't expect her to be rational right now. Yes, that is hard for men to handle, but it's true. She CAN'T be rational right now. She is flooded with feelings of being inferior, inadequate, and totally without self-worth (no matter how much she tries to hide it with anger or declarations that she is "better" than this.) She feels like garbage, and needs to build her ego again. Unfortunately, she is having a hard time doing that, so instead is trying to hurt you.

I think, just based on what you have said in your last post, that I understand what she is feeling and believe that, if you were to tell her that you truly believe that she is the best thing that has ever happened to you, and that you don't want to lose her simply because you have to, as a parent, protect your kids from emotional harm, that she might understand that.

If I were you, I would say something like:

"I'm sorry I got angry. I know I hurt you, and by hurting you I hurt myself more than you can imagine. You are the best woman I've ever known. I do know that right now I have a need to be a good father, and help my kids to overcome the verbal abuse they get from my ex. I just hope that you can try to understand that I have to protect my kids, and always will. I realize I don't have the right to ask you this after what I have done, but I really wish my kids could see you for what you are....a beautiful and kind person. I wish that we could both be there for them now and for the rest of their lives. I want them to look up to as a female role model, and learn to be responsible and good-hearted adults. They don't have a good female role-model in their lives right now, and I would really, really like it to be you, if we can work this out. Please consider it."


You may want to just pick and choose your own wording, but I honestly believe that if you said something like that, you might bring out the best in your partner, instead of the worst, which she is feeling right now.

Tino, I'm still a little confused -- do you miss your ex or your erstwhile partner? You're currently single, and want to get back together with someone, is that right? If so, which one of the two women? In talking about this you've gone back and forth between them, I've kind of lost track.

Tino--

I'm still confused. Aren't there three women: the mother of your children, your estranged love and the mid-life crisis object?

Freedomelf--

You seem to be recognizing disillusionments lately. (If there isn't such a word, there should be).

Mr. F. was happy equating you and Brenda because after all, one can't be seriously unfaithful with a clone of the beloved. By telling himself you two were alike, he was downplaying his own responsibility and guilt--to himself, if not to you.

He didn't comment on your similarities to comfort you--he wasn't thinking about you as a beloved person. He wasn't thinking about Brenda, either. He and his hormones were self-absorbed.

When the First Mr. Noddy had his mid-life crisis I heard, "The two of you are so alike." Later when I had filed for divorce (having refused to be terribly sophisticated and "understand" that his poetic soul needed both a wife and a mistress) he came forth with tears and tantrums, demanding my sympathy. I didn't realize, you see, his acute anguish that he might be making a terrible mistake.

What you term "mental confusion" I'd be inclined to call "self-focus". He's not thinking of himself as a married man. He's unhappy that he can't have his cake and eat it too.

Pity that neither you nor Brenda come with lifetime guarantees, isn't it?

It's quite obvious that you're angry.

What, exactly, are you asking of her? Are you thinking toward getting permanent custody of your kids and that your partner will share a home with you and your three children?

I hear you saying that she has rejected them, but I don't understand how she's indicated such or what you are looking for.

Tino, she obviously misses you too. Are looking for her to re-establish a live-in relationship after your infatuation, and at the same time, help you rescue your kids from their abusive mother? That would be a mighty pill for everyone - you, your partner, and your kids - to swallow.

Perhaps her response was an olive branch on the relationship front. The two of you have a number of issues to work through if you're going to start talking again. You will also have a number of issues with being the new custodial parent of three children, particularly children with emotional scars coming from an abusive household. Either of those will be more than enough to keep you busy trying to cope. Tackling both will require a herculean effort.

I agree wholeheartedly. It would take a rare woman to be able to do this under these circumstances, but they DO exist, and it is possible that she is one of them, if you give her a chance to work through her anger right now.

It is possible that rejecting your children is easier for her than rejecting you, because she loves you more. But she needs to reject SOMEONE, because she has been "rejected" and feels like carp. It doesn't mean she really feels that way. You need to do everything in your power to help her feel better about herself, so that she will be able to see rationally what the situation is, and what you need from her.

If she can be that person that you need, especially now that you are considering custody of at least your daughter if not all three, it would make your job as a parent so much easier. But this would have been a tough job for her to take on even if she WAS having no problems with you. At this particular time, it is a devastating problem. This is precisely the time when you need to focus your attention on her, and making her feel like she is special to you again. But your attentions are split, and she is feeling like she is coming after everyone in your life.....your "other woman", your kids, and everyone. If you want to see whether you can work it out, the focus has to be her....she has to know she is at least as important as the kids. And if your 13 year old daughter comes to live with you, I can guarantee she will "test the waters" to try to find out if you love her more than you love your partner. Don't play that game.....and don't ever let your partner see you play that game. Your partner must feel that she is as important as your daughter to you, and that you are thinking in "permanent" terms as far as your relationship with her.......as permanent as your relationship with your daughter. If she has any hint that she may be tossed aside again at any moment, there is no way it will work out.

It will take lots of time to make her feel secure again. I hope she can, and that it works out for you.



By the way, I can't remember who asked me what the counselor said about our sleeping arrangements, but he said that for right now, the guest bedroom seems the best solution, but that we need to work toward intimacy. He actually thought it was good that we spent the night together a few days ago, because it showed that I hadn't closed off my heart to my husband. He also said, though, that hubby needs to appreciate me in other ways first, and try to get back the romance, before he expects to return to a normal sex life. I guess it was pretty much what we both expected. I was surprised that hubby agreed with him. Of course, I wonder how long that will last. Time will tell.

So many questions, but the one I will answer is that I miss my erstwhile partner, that's who I miss.

However, the way I feel tonight is like I said to her when she was planning to move out: "If you do this we'll never get back together"

She was making bizarre plans about a six month separation [well, they were bizarre to me] that would prove I loved her, but that never seemed realistic to me.

Maybe I'm just a big ole pessimist but I really believe that once you have smashed up trust in this way then the end is inevitable [I mean my smashing up the trust, not her by leaving...I'm being careful not to confuse anybody here, I know I throw myself at my posts sometimes and beat out alot of condensed factors quickly]. So why did I do it? Because I mistook infatuation for love.

I started the thread because it seemed more than a coincidence that it happened to me at an age where this sort of thing happens to so many men and so many of them seem to live to regret it. However it isn't "my thread" as somebody claimed. I've contributed relatively little over the 26 pages that it has run to so far and what I have contributed hasn't been the most meaningful of the posts by any stretch of the imagination. You lot have certainly been educational and mind-broadening for me.

The point is that she is not answering my e-mails and I cannot chase her. I guess this is because I chased my mother for so many years to no avail [this is a fourth woman we're discussing now, my mother] and that just leaves me unable to do that sort of chasing again. If she wants to avoid me I'm not going to make it difficult for her. It's not that I don't want to say the things that Freedomelf suggests [although I would never borrow anybody else's words], it's just that I can't persue her, I'm psychologically incapable of it.

So that's that, I guess.

I'm bowing out of this thread now. I have nothing else to say.

Can I just say before I go that it isn't only men this happens to. I have known a couple of married middle aged women who have given their hearts on a plate to a complete stranger. But maybe women just handle the fall-out more sensibly [or sensitively] than men. I think women are just better equipped psychologically to deal with that kind of emotional confusion.

Good luck Freedomelf and anybody else who needs it.

Goodbye.

X

Tino, you have been very helpful to me, and I am thankful that you allowed me to gain some insight into how the "other side" might feel.

I am sorry that you can't pursue her....right now I am sure she needs to know that she is "worth it" to you. But if you can't, so be it. I do wish you all the best in the future.

I admit to complete confusion - I'll have to reread the thread. 'Back later, when I've gained a handhold, as it were.