I'm interested in hearing what you think of the links that soz has provided, MoAn.
I'd recommend ignoring the folks trying to figure out your motivation - and try to just enjoy the reading and analyzing of info process. I think learning's a huge kick, which is one of the reasons I like A2K - something new to learn about almost every day.
<I'd love to see this sort of thread featured in the science forum>
That was in response to Momma Angel -- very much agreed with ehBeth.
Yeah, wasn't sure where to put it -- the blurb in this forum about, "Or have questions about sexuality?" decided me.
Meanwhile, going out again for a while, in terms of responses or lack thereof.
No need to ignore me. I'll you you alone and hope you find the answers you are looking for.
jp,
I'm not trying to ignore you. I'm trying to decide if I should keep going or not. I want to because I really want answers to my questions. I just don't want it turned into a free for all again. So, can you give me a little bit of time here to think and maybe consult a bit with someone?
This is a very important issue to me for a few reasons. It's a hard issue for me because of my religious beliefs. It is causing a great deal of conflict for me right now. I can get into that later after I figure out where to go from here.
ehBeth and sozobe,
Thank you. I will probably be back in a bit. I need to collect my thoughts and consult a bit. Thanx for your patience.
Why wouldn't you keep going, Momma Angel?
This one IS about you, by the way.
I created it specifically so we could finally talk this to some sort of a conclusion instead of a bunch of digressions that go nowhere. I created it specifically for YOUR questions.
I'm not one of those who stand guard over a thread and demand certain people leave or do whatever. (One exception.) It's just contrary to the way a discussion board works. If anyone violates the TOS, I'll report it. Otherwise, I can't promise anything. But your participation here -- or lack thereof -- goes back to credibility.
Will add my response to the PM you just sent:
Nothing wrong with questions. That is specifically the point.
If you have questions about the articles, ask away.
Okay sozobe. I can deal with that. I'm starting supper so give me a bit of time to finish it up. I've got some things written down from the articles I have questions about.
Will be back with you shortly. Thanx for your patience everyone. I appreciate it.
Everyone,
Before we get going again with this thread and my questions I'd like to say a couple of things. Maybe if I can explain some things it might help explain where I am coming from, etc. jpinmilwaukee asked about my motivation for this and I think it's a fair question and would like to try to give him an answer.
For various reasons, I have come to the realization that I need to take a good, long, hard look at my faith and maybe redefine it. I'm not sure that is the right word for this so please just bear with me a bit. My basic beliefs are pretty rock solid so I guess it's probably more doctrinal beliefs that I am looking at right now.
The problem I am having is this: I know what I've been taught. I know what I believe. I know what I believe by what I have been taught and what I believe because I just believe. Anyway, for me to look at an issue like this where I have been around others most of my life that firmly believe homosexuality is a choice and not biological, etc. I now need to figure this out for myself. It's hard because it feels like I am letting go of some of my beliefs. But, if the belief was wrong in the first place, then what? Now, I am not saying that I think I might be wrong about what God says in the Bible about homosexuality being wrong. What I am saying is I am not sure which stand I need adjustment on. Do I need adjustment to the point that I would advocate same sex marriage or do I need to adjust my position and just be flat out against it lock, stock, and barrel. etc.?
I've gotten into a few discussions about this and frankly, I've ticked quite a few people off about this. I know I have. I cannot seem to reconcile this conflict I am feeling about this issue. Therefore, something is still wrong with my stand on it. This issue has bothered me more than abortion or anything else. Why? I'm not sure. I don't know if it's because I'm like a sister to Betty and Sue or what. These two women are amazing. They signify a loving couple, yet a type of couple I am not used to (man and woman). It's never been an issue with the three of us. We talk openly and have no animosity about each other's views on this at all. But when Sue told me that she wasn't homosexual until 12 years ago when she met Betty, I was floored! She said she could never remember having any homosexual thoughts before she met Betty. I'm like what?! And Betty says she was born homosexual. So, now I have two sides of this coin but I know there's more to it. I can read and read and read about this issue but I have all kinds of questions pop up and no one to answer them. Betty and Sue can answer as far as they are concerned but that's it. I don't have enough information!
Also, there are many Christians that would say that anyone advocating homosexuality is deceived, etc., and you have to watch out for that, etc. So, yes, in some respects, there is guilt involved in believing. If I do anything wrong in life, I feel guilty. This is very hard for me to put these words out there right now. I know how it will sound to some. Some won't understand at all, some will, and some will probably go what the ?????
I don't have much of a life outside of my home and cat shelter. I don't work anymore. I haven't for a little over two years now. Discussions with my husband are limited to Wal-Mart, cars, and the next motorcycle trip he's going to take. His views on homosexuality and other things are definitely conservative fundamentalist. Now, he has no gray areas on where he stands. I have a few close friends but you know how that goes, you can't constantly ask your same friends questions about the same thing all the time. So, on A2K there are plenty of different people out there with different views and such and it's been such a blessing for me to be able to do this.
I am in deep conflict over this issue. I haven't found anything yet that has made me say, "Yeah, I've been wrong all along on this issue." I don't know if I am and I don't know if I'm not. I know the majority says I am wrong. But I keep remembering something Setanta told me, (not an exact quote): if 50,000 people believe a stupid thing it doesn't make it any less stupid. So, I'm not saying anyone is stupid but if 50,000 people believe a wrong thing it doesn't make it right either.
I was hoping that perhaps if I could talk to some others that are homosexual and others that have friends, relatives, etc., of homosexuals, then maybe I can find some peace in this issue. I am sure some of my questions might sound stupid or off the wall to some but please try to understand that I am searching for answers here. I'm not even sure of all the questions.
I will be back after American Idol is over to start asking questions. Sozobe, I realize this isn't all that easy for you to do right now, since my credibility is a bit in question. I hope that I can change that. Your willingness to help me and give me this opportunity to find the answers I am looking for is greatly appreciated.
And Lash, if you read this, I know we're not on anything close to good terms, but I really think you could help me with this issue. I remember a few things you've said and I really think you could help. So, can we put the past aside for a while and maybe I can resolve this issue somehow?
Can I ask whether you've gone to college, had any higher education? I ask because one of the basic things that is usually taught there is finding out HOW to discover the truth of something, and that's something that's come up with you kind of a lot. I'm not sure if you have a lot of experience with just making up your own mind -- weighing the different sides and deciding what makes the most sense to you, finding the most compelling evidence, that kind of thing.
Those are important life skills, in general. It does seem like you're discovering some of that stuff.
That's brought to mind by the 50,000 thing. To me, that's really the least of my concerns in an issue like this, what other people think and how many of them think it. I try to go to the source, look at reliable evidence. Stuff like reliable scientific studies, such as the ones cited in the article. A few layers there -- who is behind the studies, what the methodology was, whether it just plain makes sense.
Anyway, still lookin' forward to questions, and happy to provide information. :-)
(I found these earlier and am just plonking the urls here so I can close the windows...)
http://www.plu.sg/main/facts_03.htm
http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html
Commercial time on American Idol so I thought I'd pop in. I got my GED when I was 19. I quit school after I got pregnant and all that mess with the family. I took two semesters of college courses going for an Associates in Business Administration but got married and well, there went that.
So, compared to quite a few on A2K, Sozobe, I probably am lacking in debating skills and some other skills. I'm 50 now and whether it's mortality creeping in or what, I don't know, just have a need to redefine things and find some answers.
Commercial's almost over. Be back after the show with my questions. Thanx!
Redefinition is cool. :-)
That would explain something else, by the way -- it seems (just speculating, feel free to correct me) like that could be part of why the relative goodness of a person you're discussing an issue with is important to you. Why these discussions get so emotional. It seems like perhaps part of how you have arrived at conclusions in your life so far has had more to do with whether you trust someone than finding things out for yourself.
That could be part of the cross-purposes. We're (a lot of us) talking about facts, evidence, logic, empirical stuff, while you're talking about who you like, who you respect, who you trust. That's immaterial to a lot of us. Some of the people I love and respect the most are nonetheless sometimes wrong, so I am always looking to bolster my opinions with facts. As in, if someone I love and respect tells me something, I'm predisposed towards believing it, because if I love and respect the person it's likely that he or she has steered me right before... but I will still look for corroborating evidence before accepting it as fact. Meanwhile, I have gotten plenty of good information from people I don't like one little bit.
Anyway, that's off the main topic, just an idle thought.
MA- I have told this story before on A2K, (so anyone who has read this, can just pass it by).
When I was in graduate school, I was in a class in human sexuality. The professor brought in three gay men to the class, who told us their stories.
The first guy had a typical story. When he was in high school, he dated, but never seem to connect with any girl. In college, he realized that he was attracted to guys, and began to live a gay lifestyle.
The second guy had dated women, and married. Although he cared for his wife, he realized that something was very wrong, but did not quite understand what was happening. Eventually they divorced, and he started having relationships with other guys. He said that the reality of his sexuality was a total surprise to him.
The third guy had a more unusual story. He stated that he knew that he was "different" from the time that he was four years old.
All three of these guys were very masculine in appearance, and there was nothing in their speech or demeanor that would signal another person that they were homosexual.The class with these guys made a profound impression on me.
I would suspect that there are some people who are "wired" for homosexuality, but repress their urges due to social or religious prohibitions. In fact, I also would suspect that there are people who are constitutionally homosexual, but are so intimidated by the entire idea that they would not admit it, even to themselves.
So what you end up with are people who deny their very essence, which is really tragic. Most of these folks want what everyone else does............a home, with someone to come home to, who will love them.
IMO, it is short sighted and cruel for a government to deny the basic human right and benefits of marriage to people, who are really not so different than the rest of us.
I hope it's okay if we take this kind of slow and just a little bit at a time. It's an awful lot for me to try to read and process and understand all at once.
What I have gotten so far is that the "predisposition?", what's the right name for? of homosexuality may be in all of us to some degree? Some may have actual feelings that lean towards it and others may not. And there's no clear defining thing as of yet that can tell anyone exactly why or how? Am I right so far?
If I am on target with that, then good. If I'm not, straighten me out on that one.
I'm still kind of reeling from the post sozobe put out there about my thought process, etc. That's quite a big chunk to swallow right now.
Just idle speculation, mind you, I might be way off the mark.
Momma Angel wrote:What I have gotten so far is that the "predisposition?", what's the right name for? of homosexuality may be in all of us to some degree? Some may have actual feelings that lean towards it and others may not. And there's no clear defining thing as of yet that can tell anyone exactly why or how? Am I right so far?
Close. What I am saying is more that people have a
variety of predispositions at a
variety of strengths. As in, person A might have a very strong predisposition towards homosexuality, that could be tamped down in extreme situations but would nonetheless be a constant presence. Person B might have only a very slight predisposition, which may come out in certain circumstances but might not, ever, at all. Meanwhile, person C might not have any predisposition at all -- just plain straight. (A "0" on the chart on the first page.)
Well, even if it's speculation, sozobe, you know more about it than I do. So, do people know these are there? Are these brought out by events? Memories? They just come out? What? Do certain things keep these feelings (?) from coming to the surface?
I never thought about that, Sozobe! 