If you Like Your Freedoms, Thank a Protestor

Lash wrote:

I think they weren't.

I'm glad they were there, and I thrilled in the sight, but the groundwork that made it possible had already been laid by others.

They just had the fun of making it official. There was the physical wall, and the wall of demarcation. They made a symbolic attack on the symbolic wall. The other wall had already been blasted.

You're very vague in your statements. Could you expand a little bit more, Lash?

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No. I think YOU should expand. Smile

You really think the protesters did it--and if all it took was protesting, why did they wait so long?

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Where did I say that "all it took was protesting"? Of course these things follow geopolitical changes and have to be seen in their respective contexts. An important factor was, for example, Gorbachev's glasnost policy. Another factor was Hungary's decision to remove its border restrictions with Austria and allow 13,000 people to escape to the West.

But I was commenting on this statement of yours:

Lash wrote:

I'd like to give it to "the people" but they had nothing to do with it.

You absolutely failed to explain your statement. Probably because you know that it is unsupportable.

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old europe wrote:

In some parts of the world, protesters finally achieved what soldiers didn't....

Prove yours first.

Laughing

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I can't believe this thread is still going, but I feel like throwing in my train-squashed 2 cents.

Thank a protestor?! So silly.

This article is a piece of crap. My opinion.

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Lash wrote:

old europe wrote:

In some parts of the world, protesters finally achieved what soldiers didn't....

Prove yours first.

That is wasn't soldiers or an army that "freed" the Eastern Bloc countries?

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Has anyone here even been to a protest?

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For my freedoms, I thank:

Protesters
Soldiers
Politicians
Generals
Journalists
Visionaries
Writers
Artists
Musicians
Parents
Teachers
Policemen
Lawyers
Judges
Doctors
Nurses...

... the list goes on and on.

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Absolutely, soz...

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Amigo--No. But, I would if any of merit were anywhere close to where I live.

LOL. I mean you're in SoCal. There's several to choose from every day.

<In the back of my mind, I have a vague memory I protested somewhere, but I can't remember, so if it comes to me, I'll post it.>

OE-- I didn't say it was soldiers---I said it wasn't the protesters.

Can you prove it was?

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"There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls."
wolfdyke Howard Thurman quotes (American Theologian, Clergyman and Activist. 1900-1981)

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Lash wrote:

Amigo--No. But, I would if any of merit were anywhere close to where I live.

LOL. I mean you're in SoCal. There's several to choose from every day.

<In the back of my mind, I have a vague memory I protested somewhere, but I can't remember, so if it comes to me, I'll post it.>

OE-- I didn't say it was soldiers---I said it wasn't the protesters.

Can you prove it was?

No. Can you prove it wasn't the protesters?

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old europe wrote:

In some parts of the world, protesters finally achieved what soldiers didn't....

You made the statement. You prove it. LOL!!

How did they acheive it?

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old europe wrote:

Lash wrote:
Do you really think protesters were the overwhelming reason that wall came down?

Yes.

und diese meine freund aus dusseldorf hat gesagt. es tute mir lied, eu. ich sprecht nicht zer good. aber herzlichen ist. Shocked

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Gee, Lash, I can't prove it any other way than to point to the numerous contemporary (or rather historical, by now) sources. It was the widespread demonstrations, with hundreds of thousands of protesters in the streets made the leaders of the Communist Party step down. It was the protesters that achieved the opening of the wall. Even in 1989, the regime was in no way inclined to open the borders. We now know that the political leaders even contemplated to send the army to crush the demonstrations, and that sheer luck as well as the rapid development prevented that. Border guards simply didn't know what to do when thousands upon thousands of people arrived at the border and demanded to be let through. Should they shoot them all down like they had been given orders? They didn't. People climbed the wall, passed the checkpoints.

Certainly, numerous developments helped to bring that about. Gorbachev. Glasnost. Hungary. Solidarność in Poland. The west German government.

But what reason do I have to believe that the reunified Germany of today would exist hadn't it been for thousands upon thousands of protesters in the streets, back in 1989?

So do I believe that protesters were the overwhelming reason that wall came down? Absolutely!

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I'm inclined to think R Reagan was a protester (Bring down this wall) perhaps he was in uniform when he protested.

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Yes, I absolutely agree with dys.... Who wouldn't remember:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/ReaganBerlinWall.jpg/300px-ReaganBerlinWall.jpg

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old europe wrote:

Gee, Lash, I can't prove it any other way than to point to the numerous contemporary (or rather historical, by now) sources. It was the widespread demonstrations, with hundreds of thousands of protesters in the streets made the leaders of the Communist Party step down. It was the protesters that achieved the opening of the wall. Even in 1989, the regime was in no way inclined to open the borders. We now know that the political leaders even contemplated to send the army to crush the demonstrations, and that sheer luck as well as the rapid development prevented that. Border guards simply didn't know what to do when thousands upon thousands of people arrived at the border and demanded to be let through. Should they shoot them all down like they had been given orders? They didn't. People climbed the wall, passed the checkpoints.

Certainly, numerous developments helped to bring that about. Gorbachev. Glasnost. Hungary. Solidarność in Poland. The west German government.

But what reason do I have to believe that the reunified Germany of today would exist hadn't it been for thousands upon thousands of protesters in the streets, back in 1989?

So do I believe that protesters were the overwhelming reason that wall came down? Absolutely!

The numerous developments made the protesters' actions possible.

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old europe wrote:

In some parts of the world, protesters finally achieved what soldiers didn't....

But what you dont see in the pics of the wall coming down is WHY the protesters were able to tear it down.

You dont see the soldiers there to protect them,you dont see the US and German troops that provided armed support and protection.
So,while its a good thing the wall is gone,you cvannot give the protestors 100% of the credit.

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Lash wrote:

The numerous developments made the protesters' actions possible.

Well, I can only guess what you mean by this statement. Do you think people only took to the streets because they knew they would be successful this time? Are you saying that, in 1989, it was obvious to everybody that the USSR would collapse? Are you saying that people were protesting because they knew they weren't at risk at all - even in the wake of the Tiananmen Square massacre? Are you doubting that the GDR leadership contemplated to employ the National People's Army to crush the protests?

And if the developments had made the protesters actions possible, how do you explain the demonstrations in the ČSSR of 1968? Why did people back then set out to protest the regime?

Sorry bout all these questions, but your one-line snide remarks don't do a lot to make a point, Lash.

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If you Like Your Freedoms, Thank a Protestor

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