If you Like Your Freedoms, Thank a Protestor

Of course, MM. The protesters IN THIS CASE were standing on the shoulders of soldiers.

Well, mysteryman, you don't see them in the picture(s), and you didn't see them in real life. I don't know if you're metaphorically speaking. However, could you explain how the US and West German troops provided armed support and protection to the East German protesters? What would they have done, had the army crushed the protest, just like China did a mere 4 months earlier at the Tiananmen square? Would they have invaded Eastern Germany in order to protect the protesters?

I'm curious about your answer.

OE-- Stop playing dumb. You know the history involved in what happened to destroy the power behind the Berlin Wall.

Yes. So do you. But what I'm saying is: political pressure, military threats and outspending the East wasn't the only thing to bring about the changes in '89/'90.

I mean, just look at North Korea: can a country be more politically isolated, strategically threatened and economically devastated than North Korea? Nevertheless, what changes does that bring about for the people of North Korea? If the protesters "had nothing to do" with the changes in the former East Bloc (like you maintained), why don't we see the same developments in North Korea?

We were both wrong. You attributed it to protesters, and I met your hyperbole, and said they had nothing to do with it.

A wash, and a good waste of pixels.

Nah... I'm still saying that the protesters were the overwhelming reason, not necessarily for the collapse of the East Bloc, but certainly for the German reunification. Not the only reason. Never said so. But hadn't it been for the protesters, we might very well have seen the USSR collapsing, but Eastern Germany remain a seperate, maybe pseudo-communist country. Or maybe the USSR would merely have transformed without breaking apart. Maybe the Eastern countries would have formed an alliance apart from NATO and the European Union. Who knows.

So if you re-read my posts, you will see that I never attributed all the developments to the protesters. I'll admit that I over-reacted to your claim that protesters had nothing to do with it. On the other hand, that's why I asked you to expand your statement.

Cheers!
oe

This statement appeared to me to take credit from military pressure and give it to a group of protesters.

In that case, a polite question about the intentions of my statement wouldn't have been misplaced, Lash...

That would have taken far less pixels.

Yeah... But then, we don't really come here to be economic about pixels, do we?

It appears to be a low priority.


Eh.

You're looking well tonight.

freedom
i don't know if anyone wants to get much deeper into a discussion of 'the wall' and its destruction .
for now i've just picked out one of the websites dealing with this subject :...A CONCRETE WALL...
it gives a good deal of information including its history, timelines and links.
anyone wanting to know more can find plenty of books on 'the wall' in public libraries.

as an aside : i remember an interview that henry kissinger gave shortly after the wall came down. he said that the u.s government had had no warning of the wall coming down or the opening of the border, and that he always thought that he would not live long enough to see the wall come down. (well, henry is still hanging around !)

subject : "the wall" , closed for now ? hbg

Hbg-- I wouldn't mind hearing your opinion about what led to the wall (figurative and literal) collapsing, if you'd like to share it.

lash : here is an excerpt from the above website :
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'The role of the USSR

The Wall fell as the combined result of both internal and external pressures. The evolution of the USSR played a crucial role in this process.

On his first official visit to West Germany in May 1989, Mikhaïl Gorbachev, whose ambition was to save his country from decline and ruin through an innovative policy based on restructuring (perestroïka) and openness (glasnost), informed Chancellor Kohl that the Brezhnev doctrine had been abandoned ; Moscow was no longer willing to use force to prevent democratic transformation of its satellite states. This was the kiss of death for East Germany in the short-term, for her very existence had no justification apart from ideology.

Immediately, on 2nd May, Hungary decided to pull down the iron curtain and on 11th September she opened up her border with Austria. These measures led Germans to pour out of East Germany. Others sought refuge in the West German embassies in Prague and Warsaw. Within six months, over 220 000 East Germans had passed over to the West.

Meanwhile, opposition groups (New Forum, Democracy Now, Democratic Renewal), wishing to change East Germany from within, grew up in the shelter of the churches and protested against the authorities in power in East Berlin.

In Leipzig, the Peace Prayers and Monday demonstrations drew more and more non violent protesters, despite brutal police intervention : 1 000 demonstrators on 4th September, 120 000 on 16th October, chanting political slogans : " Free elections ", " We are staying here ", " We are the People "...

On 7th October East Germany celebrated its fortieth anniversary, but the celebrating turned into protest against the régime which made over 1 000 arrests. As guest of honour, Gorbachev was welcomed in front of the Palace of the Republic by demonstrators' pleas of " Gorbi, help us! ". He then announced that " whoever comes too late is punished by life " (Wer zu spät kommt, den bestraft das Leben). This warning was for the benefit of the SED leaders who immediately ousted Honecker, to be replaced on 18th October by the apparatchik Egon Krenz, in turn forced to resign, on 3rd December.(added by hbg : this was after the fall of the wall)
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since i was not in east-germany at that time (or prior to it) much of what i'm saying is based on what was shown on TV at time, a number of books i read on this event, and talks i've had with german friends who were a little closer than i.
my hometown (hamburg) is less than an hour drive from the east-german border and about a two hour drive from berlin.
we arrived in germany 3 or 4 days after the wall came down on a long planned vacation to visit family.

i would say that TV played some role in the wall coming down. while east-germans were not supposed to watch west-german TV, there was nothing that could be done to prevent them from watching. there was also some travel between east and west-germany but it was not extensive. but i think it was enough to give the east-germans a taste of life in west-germany - and they liked what they saw
i think also that industry in east-germany was slowly grinding to a halt. the soviet-union was running out of money to help the east bloc countries; so i think it was a lot of little cracks here-and-there that started to rock the system. the final push came when people came out in really huge numbers to demonstrate and were able to find to find a common cause.
i seeem to recall that there were hundreds of thousands that came out to demonstrate - perhaps somewhat like the french revolution - the streets were filled with people, but no blood was spilled.
this was different from hungary in 1956 where the soviet army intervened and crushed the uprising. this time
the soviet army was staying in the barracks and did not intervene, and the east-german army and police refused to shoot their own countrymen.

while many people had died in the many years since the wall had been erected (about 30 years), to the best of my knowledge , not a single person died when the wall came finally down.

quite an unusal event, i would say .
but not even henry kissinger had forseen this event.

perhaps we can get walter and others in germany to add their comments.

i think i need to restate : i was not there at that time, so it' s not personal knowledge.

i hope this helps, lash . hbg

Hmbg, I do appreciate you taking the time to share that with me. I was aware of it, except the particular names of opposition groups, and the dates they met.

I do recall (getting chillbumps thinking of it) impassioned groups meeting with Gorby at different times, being afraid he was going to be killed or "disappeared" by hardliners. It did seem to me the Soviet Union was for all intents and purposes, dead, and that the failure of the USSR was changing the reality in Europe, but had forgotten about the wall, until the crowds began to gather.

News has made the world so small. I recall Yeltin's stand atop the tank, and when I watched them roll away, I was practically shaking. I called my children into the room to see it.

We've seen so much of the world change in the last couple of decades.

I loved Gorby, and Reagan, and give them most of the credit for taking the initiative of a failed way of life in the former USSR and freeing so many people in Europe.

I do thank you for your post.

Here is a "Free speech zone". it is kept out of site of the Media and president. if you protest outside of it you will be arrested. It has razor wire and heavily armed police.

Where exactly is that, Amigo?

I'd (imagine) there are quite a few places like that.

Democratic National Convetion, Boston.