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Is Bush Slipping Into Insanity?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 03:42 pm
With Set, Amigo, and Candid challenging the unfounded charges about Saddam gassing the Kurds by the neocons, it's surprising to see them continue the old saw repeatedly when they know what they are saying is questionable at best, and a lie at worst.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 03:44 pm
Now that the coalition forces have now killed about 100,000 innocent Iraqis (by some estimates), when does it become equivalent to Saddam's supposed gassing of the Kurds?
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 03:45 pm
Integrity, cicerone. It is a matter of there integrity.
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:05 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Now that the coalition forces have now killed about 100,000 innocent Iraqis (by some estimates), when does it become equivalent to Saddam's supposed gassing of the Kurds?


In fairness, the coalition hasn't killed that many.
Insurgents must surely be accountable for some of those deaths.

links?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:15 pm
War has killed 100,000 Iraqis: study
Last Updated Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:25:07 EDT
CBC News
LONDON - Nearly 100,000 more Iraqis have died during the American-led occupation than would have been expected otherwise, a study posted on The Lancet medical journal's website Thursday estimates.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:17 pm
Just like to mention that the CBC News report is dated October 29, 2004. I'm sure the past ten months have increased those estimates.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:20 pm
Here's another one:

"Study: 100,000 Iraqis died in war, aftermath
Science journal say coalition caused majority of violent deaths


The Associated Press
Updated: 12:48 p.m. ET Oct. 28, 2004
LONDON - A survey of deaths in Iraqi households estimates that as many as 100,000 more people may have died throughout the country in the 18 months after the U.S. invasion than would be expected based on the death rate before the war."
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:21 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
With Set, Amigo, and Candid challenging the unfounded charges about Saddam gassing the Kurds by the neocons

Whoa, back up the truck

Saddamás use of gas against the Kurds is pretty well documented...

Human rights activists, the EU, a bipartisan coalition in Congress (that found Bush Sr in its way), the Socialist International, etc didnt all express their outrage back then already for no reason ...

Easy up.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:27 pm
I think that, whether it was Iraqi or Iranian gas, the point that often gets missed when this is trotted out is that there was a war going on and this wasn't just some random act against the populace.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:33 pm
candidone1 wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Now that the coalition forces have now killed about 100,000 innocent Iraqis (by some estimates), when does it become equivalent to Saddam's supposed gassing of the Kurds?

In fairness, the coalition hasn't killed that many.
Insurgents must surely be accountable for some of those deaths.

links?


I posted this on the Bush supporters' aftermath thread re: the total number of deaths in Iraq:

nimh wrote:
The number of civilian Iraqi casualties at the moment is between 22,000 and 25,000, according to iraqbodycount.net. Estimates have varied though: the British medical journal The Lancet for example in October 2004 wrote that about 100,000 Iraqi civilians died as a result of the war.

The number of Iraqi military casualties are a big unknown, but are estimated to be a multiple of the number of killed civilians. Even if we disregard the Lancet numbers, thus, we are therefore in total probably talking in the upper five-digit numbers.

That said, I should not have posted the exact (six-digit) number of 100,000 without reservation.


And subsequently this on who is responsible for how many of them in the London Attack thread:

nimh wrote:
JustWonders wrote:
PM Blair dresses down MSM

Question:

More civilians have been killed by the Americans and the British than have been killed by these attacks.

Prime Minister:

Excuse me. First of all - I don't accept that at all incidentally

He doesn´t accept that at all?

Now thats odd. Because it´s true.

Quote:
WASHINGTON, D.C., Jul 28 (OneWorld) - At least 24,865 Iraqi civilians have died since the U.S.-led coalition began its war in their country but the real figure is unknown because coalition forces, flouting the Geneva Conventions, refuse to aid an accurate count, said a leading medical journal.

[..] The journal cited the work of Iraq Body Count (IBC), a British-U.S. non-profit group that last week reported that 24,865 civilians had died in the two years since the war in Iraq began in March 2003. The IBC database, from which data for the dossier were drawn, lists only those deaths reported by two or more news agencies, The Lancet said. [..]

Coalition spokespersons, faced with a rising death toll of Iraqis killed in bomb and gun attacks on politicians and local police and civilian targets, have laid the blame for these deaths squarely at the feet of terrorist groups. [..]

The IBC, in its 28-page dossier, said [..] U.S.-led forces killed nearly 37 percent of the total [..] Criminals, accounting for 36 percent of civilian deaths, came a close second to U.S.-led forces. Insurgents, however, accounted for a surprisingly small 9.5 percent.

''Unknown agents'' were responsible for 11 percent of deaths, according to IBC.

The IBC dossier covered civilians, army and police recruits, and serving police. [..]

The death toll closely resembled a U.N.-funded survey that last year found 24,000 conflict-related deaths since the U.S.-led invasion.

LINK

Yes, its another example of Blair and Bush bravely dressing down those devious MSM - when they speak uncomfortable truths.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:34 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
this wasn't just some random act against the populace.

I dont agree with that at all.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:35 pm
nimh, I did a simple search on "did Saddam gas the Kurds," and got many hits. Most of them ocnfirm what you said about needing to "back up the truck." It seems the major media and first hand reports identified the Iraqi Air Force as dropping those chemical agents on the Kurds.

My apologies for assuming Set, Amigo and Candid to be correct; it's difficult when we get speradic contradictory information to keep everything straight.

nimh, Thanks again for letting me back up the truck.
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:40 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
nimh, I did a simple search on "did Saddam gas the Kurds," and got many hits. Most of them ocnfirm what you said about needing to "back up the truck." It seems the major media and first hand reports identified the Iraqi Air Force as dropping those chemical agents on the Kurds.

My apologies for assuming Set, Amigo and Candid to be correct; it's difficult when we get speradic contradictory information to keep everything straight.

nimh, Thanks again for letting me back up the truck.


And that was the essence of my thread titledDid Saddam gas the Kurds...or was it Iran.

Seems only spam happy Tico wanted to participate.
Could we entertain this discussion over there?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 05:01 pm
Habibi, i was just coming over to link Candidone's thread. I have read since at least the late 1990's that the attck at Halabja was either by Persians, or the consequence of gas used by both sides in an on-going battle. Your sources are not unimpeachable. From what i have read on the subject for nearly ten years, I consider it by no means certain that Hussein just willfully gassed the Kurds.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 06:54 pm
Setanta wrote:
Habibi, i was just coming over to link Candidone's thread. I have read since at least the late 1990's that the attck at Halabja was either by Persians, or the consequence of gas used by both sides in an on-going battle. Your sources are not unimpeachable. From what i have read on the subject for nearly ten years, I consider it by no means certain that Hussein just willfully gassed the Kurds.


this is really the first i've ever heard that it could have been anybody else, like the iranians.

not something that i'd put past the ayatollah kockamaimy. he sucked just about as much as saddam.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 08:02 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
nimh, I did a simple search on "did Saddam gas the Kurds," and got many hits. Most of them ocnfirm what you said about needing to "back up the truck." It seems the major media and first hand reports identified the Iraqi Air Force as dropping those chemical agents on the Kurds.

My apologies for assuming Set, Amigo and Candid to be correct; it's difficult when we get speradic contradictory information to keep everything straight.

nimh, Thanks again for letting me back up the truck.
I'm never wrong. I can't afford it. Neither can the people I work with. Check for yourself.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 08:05 pm
"I'm never wrong. I can't afford it." Laughing
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 08:07 pm
You all will have to forgive this old geezer for misreading, misinterpreting, and misrepresenting your position on this issue. Unlike some people, I still make a bunch of mistakes.
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 08:10 pm
I thought I was wrong once, but I made a mistake.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 08:17 pm
I've just spent a lot of time online reading about the allegations with regard to Halabja. There are claims on both sides, and the credentials of those who claim the Kurds of Halabja were the victims of Persian cyanide gas (as opposed to the mustard gas used by the Iraqis) are easily as convincing as those who purport that Hussein willfully gassed the Kurds. Therefore, i stand by my original statement that it is by no means certain that Hussein willfully gassed the Kurds.
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