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Attack in London Today

 
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 10:23 am
nimh hasn't seen Patriot Games...or read the book.

Not a Tom Clancy fan? Smile
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 08:31 pm
sumac wrote:
gf,

In your most recent post you mention press releases, internet forums, jury trials.

What role do you give to the press?


Good point sumac. I should have mentioned the press. From what I know of the British press it is - unlike the press/media in my country - very diverse so there have been varied reports (I've read a lot of the online versions). The standout is The Scotsman. I think they must be in William Wallace mode or something because they are carrying quite a few rants about this and it's not good for Ian Blair or the coppers.

However the rest of the UK online media seems to be pretty objective without being obsequious.

McTag - I am all in favour of an inquiry sorting this out and sorting it out properly. I hope I don't have to emphasise that a man is dead who damn well ought not to be. I'm not a cheerleader for the police in this one, just somewhat empathetic. Having said that I want the system to work as well. No coverup.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 10:49 pm
Quote:
Police marksmen could face charges for shooting Brazilian at Tube station

By Nigel Morris and Jason Bennetto
Published: 24 August 2005

The policemen who shot dead Jean Charles de Menezes could face criminal charges over their fatal error, a coroner has been told.

The inquest into the Brazilian electrician's death was delayed for six months to allow the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) to complete its inquiry. But the IPCC investigation will not be published until any court case, or disciplinary action, against the officers is complete.

Mr de Menezes died when he was shot eight times on a Tube train at Stockwell station, south London, on 22 July, by officers who mistook him for a suicide bomber.

Confirmation that the officers could be prosecuted came from Richard Latham, the lawyer for the IPCC, at a brief preliminary inquest hearing in London.

He told Inner South District coroner's court: "There is an intention to report before Christmas. No one would expect an investigation such as this to be hurried. It must be wide-ranging and conducted with very considerable care.

"In due course there may - I emphasise there may - be recommendations to the Director [of Public Prosecutions] that criminal proceedings should be initiated or a recommendation to the Metropolitan Police or the Metropolitan Police Authority that disciplinary proceedings may arise and, inevitably, in due course there will be an inquest."

Alessandro Pereira, a cousin of Mr de Menezes, said he was pleased that criminal charges could be brought against police.

John Cummins, a senior IPCC investigating officer, told the hearing there was still a "considerable amount of fresh work to be done" in their investigation.

Amid conflicting reports over whether CCTV cameras had captured the Brazilian's last moments, he told the hearing he had received a "comprehensive handover package" from the Metropolitan Police, but declined to say whether it included video footage.

The Independent has learnt that the surveillance camera that would have filmed Mr de Menezes being shot dead was providing "live'' pictures but, because of a malfunction, did not record any images.

Anti-terrorist police who seized footage from cameras at Stockwell hours after the attempted bombings on 21 July discovered that at least one camera was recording blank pictures. The faulty camera was believed to be on the Northern line where Mr de Menezes was shot dead.

Because of the malfunction, the camera was showing live pictures to Tube staff monitoring them, but when police studied the tape it was blank. That could explain why Tube staff have insisted that cameras were working at Stockwell yet the leaked police reports into the shooting say that they were malfunctioning.

It is unclear whether any of the other surveillance cameras were working on the Northern line platform where the shooting took place but even if they were, it was suggested that they were pointing away from the shooting.

Representatives of the Brazilian government, who are visiting London to examine the circumstances of the death, said yesterday they were keen to see any relevant footage from Stockwell. The ambassador, Manoel Gomes Pereira, said: "We want to see the video."

He said his government had been left "perplexed" when information given by police to the IPCC was leaked last week. "We didn't have any idea of the new facts," he said.

But he said he did not believe that British officials or police had tried to cover up the truth about the shooting. He said: "At this point in time we do not think so, we do not have any reason to feel this."

Marcio Garcia, from the Brazilian Ministry of Justice, and Wagner Goncalves, of the Brazilian Federal Prosecutor's Office, met senior Metropolitan Police officers, including Sir Ian Blair, its Commissioner, on Monday.

Yesterday they met Mr Pereira and will today visit the Crown Prosecution Service and the IPCC.

Claims that the campaign pressing for justice for Mr de Menezes had been hijacked by hardline left-wing campaigners were denied yesterday by two relatives.

Asad Rehman, one of the campaign's chief spokesmen, has advised George Galloway, the leader of the Respect party, and was a founder of the Stop the War Coalition, although he resigned from it in 2003.

Another, Yasmin Khan, is involved with National Assembly Against Racism and Iraq Occupation Focus, which is campaigning to get coalition forces out of Iraq.

The policemen who shot dead Jean Charles de Menezes could face criminal charges over their fatal error, a coroner has been told.

The inquest into the Brazilian electrician's death was delayed for six months to allow the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) to complete its inquiry. But the IPCC investigation will not be published until any court case, or disciplinary action, against the officers is complete.

Mr de Menezes died when he was shot eight times on a Tube train at Stockwell station, south London, on 22 July, by officers who mistook him for a suicide bomber.

Confirmation that the officers could be prosecuted came from Richard Latham, the lawyer for the IPCC, at a brief preliminary inquest hearing in London.

He told Inner South District coroner's court: "There is an intention to report before Christmas. No one would expect an investigation such as this to be hurried. It must be wide-ranging and conducted with very considerable care.

"In due course there may - I emphasise there may - be recommendations to the Director [of Public Prosecutions] that criminal proceedings should be initiated or a recommendation to the Metropolitan Police or the Metropolitan Police Authority that disciplinary proceedings may arise and, inevitably, in due course there will be an inquest."

Alessandro Pereira, a cousin of Mr de Menezes, said he was pleased that criminal charges could be brought against police.

John Cummins, a senior IPCC investigating officer, told the hearing there was still a "considerable amount of fresh work to be done" in their investigation.

Amid conflicting reports over whether CCTV cameras had captured the Brazilian's last moments, he told the hearing he had received a "comprehensive handover package" from the Metropolitan Police, but declined to say whether it included video footage.

The Independent has learnt that the surveillance camera that would have filmed Mr de Menezes being shot dead was providing "live'' pictures but, because of a malfunction, did not record any images.

Anti-terrorist police who seized footage from cameras at Stockwell hours after the attempted bombings on 21 July discovered that at least one camera was recording blank pictures. The faulty camera was believed to be on the Northern line where Mr de Menezes was shot dead.
Because of the malfunction, the camera was showing live pictures to Tube staff monitoring them, but when police studied the tape it was blank. That could explain why Tube staff have insisted that cameras were working at Stockwell yet the leaked police reports into the shooting say that they were malfunctioning.

It is unclear whether any of the other surveillance cameras were working on the Northern line platform where the shooting took place but even if they were, it was suggested that they were pointing away from the shooting.

Representatives of the Brazilian government, who are visiting London to examine the circumstances of the death, said yesterday they were keen to see any relevant footage from Stockwell. The ambassador, Manoel Gomes Pereira, said: "We want to see the video."

He said his government had been left "perplexed" when information given by police to the IPCC was leaked last week. "We didn't have any idea of the new facts," he said.

But he said he did not believe that British officials or police had tried to cover up the truth about the shooting. He said: "At this point in time we do not think so, we do not have any reason to feel this."

Marcio Garcia, from the Brazilian Ministry of Justice, and Wagner Goncalves, of the Brazilian Federal Prosecutor's Office, met senior Metropolitan Police officers, including Sir Ian Blair, its Commissioner, on Monday.

Yesterday they met Mr Pereira and will today visit the Crown Prosecution Service and the IPCC.

Claims that the campaign pressing for justice for Mr de Menezes had been hijacked by hardline left-wing campaigners were denied yesterday by two relatives.

Asad Rehman, one of the campaign's chief spokesmen, has advised George Galloway, the leader of the Respect party, and was a founder of the Stop the War Coalition, although he resigned from it in 2003.

Another, Yasmin Khan, is involved with National Assembly Against Racism and Iraq Occupation Focus, which is campaigning to get coalition forces out of Iraq.
Source
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 11:09 pm
I think this is fair enough. British policemen recently shot a man who was carrying a table leg. They said they thought he was about to fire it at them.

They are not taking enough care. I have mixed feelings about this. I don't mind them roughing up criminals, that goes with the territory, but there are too many trigger-happy incidents cropping up.

Put them on trial, say I, pour encourager les autres
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 05:03 am
McTag wrote:
I think this is fair enough. British policemen recently shot a man who was carrying a table leg. They said they thought he was about to fire it at them.

They are not taking enough care. I have mixed feelings about this. I don't mind them roughing up criminals, that goes with the territory, but there are too many trigger-happy incidents cropping up.

Put them on trial, say I, pour encourager les autres


Wasn't that reference to poor old Admiral Byng? I hope anyone on trial in this matter doesn't wear what he did.

Go back through the records McTag - the officers in the Harry Stanley incident have been through the wringer. It's still going, grinding and grinding away.

That took place in 1999, I don't think you could describe it as "recent". And as I said, it's still going.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Stanley

McTag unlike some countries in the world the British criminal justice system comes down on coppers like a ton of bricks. Call me naieve if you wish but the evidence is there.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 05:56 am
goodfielder wrote:
Go back through the records McTag - the officers in the Harry Stanley incident have been through the wringer. It's still going, grinding and grinding away.

That took place in 1999, I don't think you could describe it as "recent". And as I said, it's still going.


Okay, but it's just three months ago that two Metropolitan Police officers were arrested by detectives investigating the fatal shooting Hackney, east London, which indeed happened as long ago as in 1999.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 06:28 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
goodfielder wrote:
Go back through the records McTag - the officers in the Harry Stanley incident have been through the wringer. It's still going, grinding and grinding away.

That took place in 1999, I don't think you could describe it as "recent". And as I said, it's still going.


Okay, but it's just three months ago that two Metropolitan Police officers were arrested by detectives investigating the fatal shooting Hackney, east London, which indeed happened as long ago as in 1999.


That's right Walter and if you look at the process you'll see it has been long and torturous. There is also a view that the arrest was an abuse of process as well. They were arrested by investigators from another force (Surrey I think it was) and there are questions as to whether this was necessary or whether an ambitious officer from Surrey (?) was trying to make a point and improve his promotional chances. Anyway I suppose that's an internal thing. The two Met coppers in this one have been bounced around so much that if it were two non-cop defendants the media would have been screaming about abuse of process. Truly unusual.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 10:01 am
I hope it is unusual. It seems to be becoming more frequent, officers willing to act, with deadly effect, on receipt of information which turns out to be wrong.

I think it was Napoleon who had one of his generals shot "to encourage the others." Can't remember the story about Admiral Byng. Didn't he make a serious navigational mistake, and wreck half his fleet? Doesn't matter here.

Perhaps, on second thoughts, I was wrong to suggest the policemen should be put on trial. It was a system breakdown, and they felt they had to act as they did to protect the public. They were given wrong information. That is not their fault. Then, they seemed to have followed their training, killing the target by shots to the head.

I think the Commissioner, though, should not have spoken as he did, and having misinformed us, he should quickly have made a retraction, and an early apology, as all the facts became clear.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 11:32 am
I think it was an assassination which went according to plan except for executing the wrong man.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 12:56 pm
A minor detail . . . if 95% of the plan goes off as intended, then it can be said to have been a success . . .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 12:58 pm
You know, it that were the case, that raises another interesting question. Inferentially, the true intended target would be someone who uses the same routes of the public transport system at the same times of day. So, did said intended target get wise quickly enough, and get out of Dodge?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 02:47 pm
Setanta wrote:
You know, it that were the case, that raises another interesting question. Inferentially, the true intended target would be someone who uses the same routes of the public transport system at the same times of day. So, did said intended target get wise quickly enough, and get out of Dodge?


No, it's much more banal than that. A chap with olive skin came out of an apartment block which was under police surveillance. (They were watching the building, I believe, because that address was on a gym membership card one of the bombers left behind.)

Thereafter, everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. The man who should have identified him was not on station. They followed him at a distance, thinking he may have been a bomber. They called for armed assistance. They followed him on a bus, and then he got off the bus and walked into the tube station. The armed squad apparently arrived at the last minute, and piled after him down the stairs and into the train. He was already on the tube train when he was pointed ot to the armed police.
They assumed then, there was a bomber, he was on the tube train already, he was a danger, he had to be stopped. They had been trained how to stop a bomber: shoot him in the head. They shot him.

That's what I think happened, but you can wait for the enquiry if you would prefer.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 04:56 pm
just shows you how easily things can go wrong - be in the wrong spot at the wrong time.
it almost sounds like "friendly fire" - even though there is never anything friendly about it.
a real tragedy for everyone - but particularly for the victim and his family. hbg
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 08:23 pm
Steve - I disagree with you but if I'm wrong and it was a hit I will admit that I am naieve enough to believe that that wouldn't happen in the UK - in these circumstances. I'm not referring to the govt security services assassinating people, a different situation.

McTag I think there will be a trial. I read through the CPS guidelines and looked at s 3 of the Criminal Law Act (UK) and tossing the facts around in my mind I would think that it would be a very brave (in the "Yes Minister") sense individual who didn't decide to prosecute and let a jury make its decision.

This is my reasoning. A is dead. B killed him. B professes a justification using s 3 CL Act. Given the attendant circumstances (this one went around the world, the Harry Stanley case took a long time to make it into the international consciousness) I would think it would be odds on for a prosecution. I admit I'm totally ignorant of any national security legislation that might trump that decision.

On the police. I do admit to empathy with those involved. But this isn't some sort of blind an disregarding loyalty. Only twice in my career have I been in a situation where that decision had to be made by me and thankfully nothing bad happened. I am eternally grateful for not having someone's death (legally justified) on my conscience. That's what I mean by empathy. A sort of identification I suppose.

Now to continue that little reflection, I find it ironic that Brazil is in uproar over this. I'm not surprised, because this poor man was totally innocent and killed in a tragic mistake, but I find it ironic because Brazil is the home of police death squads who appear to murder with impunity. They're not coppers, they're murdering crooks in uniform. Any connection between them and the police in the UK is in name only.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3167296.stm

And check Amnesty International for more information.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 11:45 pm
Yes it's ironic and quite sad. In Brazil, they round up street kids and kill them.
Different place, different ways. And those two headline-grabbing Brazilian coppers could have got any information they need about the British legal system (their stated reason for coming) from our Embassy in Rio.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2005 12:17 am
Quote:
Watchdog: Police have footage of Tube death

By Ben Russell, Political Correspondent
Published: 25 August 2005

The head of the police complaints watchdog has insisted that investigators have obtained "crucial" CCTV evidence about the death of Jean Charles de Menezes.
Nick Hardwick, chairman of the Independent Police Complaints Commission, rejected claims of a cover-up, declaring that "I have all the information that I need" to investigate the events leading to the shooting of the electrician by anti-terrorist police a month ago.

Speaking after a meeting with a Brazilian delegation in Britain to investigate the shooting, Mr Hardwick insisted that the CCTV footage from the scene of the shooting at Stockwell Underground station was "very helpful".

He refused to clarify whether cameras in the station and the train were working and caught the final moments of Mr de Menezes' life.

However, members of the Brazilian delegation revealed that some of the CCTV cameras that would have filmed Mr de Menezes being shot may have been out of order. "Apparently there are parts of the film which do not exist," said Ambassador Manoel Gomes Pereira.

Ken Livingstone yesterday attacked the "many enemies" of the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair for attempting to undermine him.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4, Mr Livingstone, the Mayor of London, heaped praise on Sir Ian, insisting that the Commissioner's reforms would help thwart any future terror strike on the capital."There are few people I have had to deal with in 30 years in public life I trust as totally as I do him," he said.

The head of the police complaints watchdog has insisted that investigators have obtained "crucial" CCTV evidence about the death of Jean Charles de Menezes.

Nick Hardwick, chairman of the Independent Police Complaints Commission, rejected claims of a cover-up, declaring that "I have all the information that I need" to investigate the events leading to the shooting of the electrician by anti-terrorist police a month ago.

Speaking after a meeting with a Brazilian delegation in Britain to investigate the shooting, Mr Hardwick insisted that the CCTV footage from the scene of the shooting at Stockwell Underground station was "very helpful".

He refused to clarify whether cameras in the station and the train were working and caught the final moments of Mr de Menezes' life.
However, members of the Brazilian delegation revealed that some of the CCTV cameras that would have filmed Mr de Menezes being shot may have been out of order. "Apparently there are parts of the film which do not exist," said Ambassador Manoel Gomes Pereira.

Ken Livingstone yesterday attacked the "many enemies" of the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair for attempting to undermine him.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4, Mr Livingstone, the Mayor of London, heaped praise on Sir Ian, insisting that the Commissioner's reforms would help thwart any future terror strike on the capital."There are few people I have had to deal with in 30 years in public life I trust as totally as I do him," he said.
Source
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2005 02:19 am
Coming from Red Ken that's a compliment for Ian Blair. But then of course long before this tragedy Ian Blair has been undermined from within, he has been trying to effect cultural change in the Met - for which I say, good on him. It could do with a damn good shakeup. I have a couple of good mates in the Met but even they admit it is very conservative. Anyway nothing can bring that poor man back but hopefully the truth (don't laugh I still believe in it) will out.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2005 03:35 am
I heard that interview with Ken Livingstone yesterday, and it made me think. He obviously has a lot of respect for the man (Ian Blair)
And that's quite something, given Livingstone's background compared with Blair's.

Blair has a lot of enemies in the Met, because of his moves towards reform.
So maybe he was set up with misinformation before his first press statement on this incident.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2005 08:26 am
McTag wrote:
nimh wrote:
Does Britain have jury trials?


A joke I suppose? Rolling Eyes

Nope, just ignorance. We dont have jury trials, kinda frown on them. Think most of continental Europe doesnt have jury trials. I just didnt know about Britain.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2005 09:58 am
They certainly throw up some strange results.

There is a move afoot here, to have trials involving complicated financial matters held before experts, not lay persons. In other words, no jury. But that is not yet agreed.
0 Replies
 
 

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