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Attack in London Today

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 05:12 am
Quote:
The Wrap: A worm's eye view

Monday August 22, 2005


The war on terror has become a convenient excuse for murder, says Andrew Brown
In November 2001 I spent a week watching evening television in hotel rooms around America, just after the phrase "war on terror" had come into general use. Some of what I saw was excellent. I will never forget a scene from a documentary about the Afghan war, showing a young Russian conscript crawling from the ruins of his armoured car before a mujahid stood over him and blew his brains out. The expression on the crawling boy's face taught me something about war that no other medium could have done. In those days, of course, the mujahideen were freedom fighters.

But the "war on terror" was for the most part used just as a kind of advertising banner to brand films of powerful aircraft taking off to bomb mountain ranges half way round the world. When it appeared as "America's war on terror" it was even more similar to the banners all around me selling Americans America's something or other.

Of course, the "war on terror" never made sense - how do you end such a thing? "When all the terrorists are eliminated", as Dick Cheney told a European journalist once? But that's not to say the phrase wasn't effective or important. It expressed anger; it made thought difficult and it obscured still more of the real world.

Now it has crossed to this country, and is being used in comments on the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian electrician shot dead on a tube train in south London by plainclothes police. At first, we were told that he was a suicide bomber; then that he had behaved like one - wearing a padded jacket, running when challenged. Leaks from the enquiry last week suggest that he was dressed in a light denim jacket, and reached the train quite normally, paying for his ride and picking up a free paper, before being grabbed when he reached it by one policeman, who held him immobilised while a colleague shot him seven times in the head at close range.

One of the most interesting things about these false stories is that many of them seem to have come from a civilian eyewitness to the killing who simply cannot have seen what he was sure he saw. The point is that he knew, like everyone else in London, that there were men roaming around the city willing to let off bombs in the tube, and he desperately wanted them killed in their turn. So that's what he saw.

Journalists are held to different standards of objectivity. They have to wrap their opinions in rhetoric, and in the "war on terror", everything is possible. Here is a front page lead from the Daily Express: "Police who shot dead an innocent man in the war against terror should not face murder charges, their fellow officers said last night."

Serving police officers always take the view that their colleagues should never face charges for any excess of zeal. That is precisely why the rest of us have an interest in a policy of zero tolerance for police wrongdoing. It is unarguably true that innocent civilians are killed in war. It should also be axiomatic that if the police kill innocent civilians, the word, and the charge, for what they have done is "murder".

The Sun columnist Richard Littlejohn devoted an entire column to defending "the poor bloody infantry", as he called the police. The phrase has a fine martial ring - except that even the British army is not allowed to shoot innocent unarmed men on tube trains. Besides, the infantry are called poor and bloody because it's their job to be shot at, even more than to shoot back. This just isn't true of the police. The civilian police may risk their lives, but only by way of exception. It's not what they join up for.

In a real war, the infantry know very well what may happen to them. I suppose the one consolation for the parents of Jean Charles de Menezes is that he can have had no idea at all that he was about to be killed before a complete stranger grabbed his arms and another shot him seven times in the head. He didn't know he was in the middle of a war. We shouldn't insult his memory by pretending that he was.

source: The Wrap, of Guardian Unlimited's paid-for services
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 11:05 am
SNAFU (cockup), or murder? Where is the line?
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 07:59 pm
sumac wrote:
SNAFU (cockup), or murder? Where is the line?


Want a legal answer? Or are you looking for a political answer?

If you want a legal answer then the difference is palpable. The police officer (if indeed it was a police officer, this is getting very difficult to understand) who pulled the trigger and indeed those who helped could face criminal charges. Those charges could be murder or manslaughter. Murder requires a very specific intention for a conviction to be made out. There are also quite a few defences to murder focusing on the issue of intention. It might seem a bit arcane but someone can deliberately kill and yet not be convicted of murder. If the killing is negligent - and in itself that is a difficult and complex concept - then it isn't murder but is manslaughter. If the killing is reckless then it's manslaughter.

If this is a SNAFU then they will be charged and possibly convicted of manslaughter. I don't know all the details so I'm only speculating here but I would suggest that a successful defence to murder would focus on the understanding of the situation of the defendants. In which case manslaughter would be found and in which case they would be sentenced on that understanding. Bearing in mind the complexity of the sentencing process they - if convicted - could face a term of imprisonment or some other non-custodial penalty.

For this to be murder it would be necessary to prove that there was a specific intent to kill this man without any ameliorating circumstances such as their belief they had to kill him to save themselves and others' lives.

Of course murder would also be made out if it could be proven that the authorities suspected him of being a terrorist and ordered the team to kill him without reason. If that was the case then the team would be charged with murder and those issuing orders to kill would be charged with an offence involving complicity. They could (depending on the formulation of English law) also be charged with murder.

If you're looking for a political answer then I can't help you.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 08:59 pm
I'm still bemused and mystified by the continual reference in the media to Operation Kratos and the "shoot to kill" policy and that the terms are intertwined. I know nothing about Operation Kratos but I've worked under what are called "operational order" conditions and I know that any op order merely reiterates what the law is and from that how the op is to be conducted. So this "shoot to kill" assertion is beyond me. The law can't change simply because someone devised an op order.

The follow long extract is from the UK Crown Prosecution Service website. If a decision on prosecution is to be made then this is the body that will do it and presumably the following will guide the CPS on its decision-making. It covers the English law on self defence and reasonable force.


http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section5/chapter_d.html




Quote:
Principle

This section offers guidance of general application to all offences susceptible to the defences of:

self defence;
defence of another;
the prevention of crime; and
lawful arrest and the apprehension of offenders.

This guidance is particularly relevant to offences against the person and homicide, and prosecutors should refer to Offences against the Person, incorporating the charging standard, elsewhere in this guidance and Homicide, elsewhere in this guidance.

In the context of cases involving the use of violence, the guiding principle is the preservation of the Rule of Law and the Queen's Peace.

However, it is important to ensure that all those acting reasonably and in good faith to defend themselves, their family, their property or in the prevention of crime or the apprehension of offenders are not prosecuted for such action. Refer to joint CPS and ACPO leaflet - Householders and the Use of Force Against Intruders.

When reviewing cases involving assertions of self-defence or action in the prevention of crime/preservation of property, prosecutors should be aware of the balance to be struck:

the public interest in promoting a responsible contribution on the part of citizens in preserving law and order; and
in discouraging vigilantism and the use of violence generally.

Prosecutors should be aware of the sensitivity of such cases. This is particularly so when the alleged victim of an offence was himself/herself engaged in criminal activity at the relevant time. For instance, a burglar who claims to have been assaulted by the occupier of the premises concerned.

When considering cases where an argument of self-defence is raised, or is likely to be raised, you should apply the tests set out in the Code for Crown Prosecutors, refer to the Code for Crown Prosecutors elsewhere in this guidance.

The guidance in this section should be followed in determining whether the Code tests have been met.

When considering the sufficiency of the evidence in such cases, you must be satisfied that there is enough reliable and admissible evidence to rebut the suggestion of self-defence. The prosecution must rebut self-defence to the criminal standard of proof, see Burden of Proof in this section below.

If there is sufficient evidence to prove the offence, and to rebut self defence, the public interest in prosecuting must then be carefully considered.


Guidance

The Law and Evidential Sufficiency
Self-defence is available as a defence to crimes committed by use of force.

The basic principles of self-defence are set out in (Palmer v R, [1971] A.C 814); see also (Archbold 19-41);

"It is both good law and good sense that a man who is attacked may defend himself. It is both good law and good sense that he may do, but only do, what is reasonably necessary."

The common law approach as expressed in Palmer v. R and other authorities, is also relevant to the application of Section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967 (Archbold 19-39):

"A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."

Section 3 applies to the prevention of crime and effecting, or assisting in, the lawful arrest of offenders and suspected offenders. There is an obvious overlap between self-defence and section 3. However, section 3 only applies to crime and not to civil matters so, for instance, it cannot afford a defence in repelling trespassers by force, unless the trespassers are involved in some form of criminal conduct.



'Reasonable Force'
A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:

self-defence; or
defence of another; or
defence of property; or
prevention of crime; or
lawful arrest.

In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:

was the use of force justified in the circumstances, i.e. was there a need for any force at all? and
was the force used excessive in the circumstances?
The courts have indicated that both questions are to answered on the basis of the facts as the accused honestly believed them to be (R v Williams (G) 78 Cr. App R 276), (R. v Oatbridge, 94 Cr App R 367) and (Archbold 19-49).


To that extent it is a subjective test. There is, however, an objective element to the test. The jury must then go on to ask themselves whether, on the basis of the facts as the accused believed them to be, a reasonable person would regard the force used as reasonable or excessive.

It is important to bear in mind when assessing whether the force used was reasonable the words of Lord Morris in (Palmer v R ,1971 A.C. 814);

" If there has been an attack so that self defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken...".

The fact that an act was considered necessary does not mean that the resulting action was reasonable. (R v Clegg 1995 1 A.C. 482 HL) and (Archbold 19-41).

However, where it is alleged that a person acted to defend himself/herself from violence, the extent to which the action taken was necessary will, of course, be integral to the reasonableness of the force used.

In (R v Martin (Anthony) [2002] 1 Cr. App. R. 27), the Court of Appeal held that whilst a court is entitled to take account of the physical characteristics of the defendant in deciding what force was reasonable, it was not appropriate, absent exceptional circumstances which would make the evidence especially probative, to take account of whether the defendant was suffering from some psychiatric condition.

In (R v O'Grady 85 Cr App R 315), it was held by the Court of Appeal that a defendant was not entitled to rely, so far as self-defence is concerned, upon a mistake of fact which had been induced by voluntary intoxication.


Use of force against Those Committing Crime

Prosecutors should exercise particular care when assessing the reasonableness of the force used in those cases in which the alleged victim was, or believed by the accused to have been, at the material time, engaged in committing a crime. A witness to violent crime with a continuing threat of violence may well be justified in using extreme force to remove a threat of further violence.

In assessing whether it was necessary to use force, prosecutors should bear in mind the period of time in which the person had to decide whether to act against another who he/she thought to be committing an offence
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 10:22 pm
Another try to explain this, as published in The Times
Quote:
August 18, 2005

Legal briefing: when police shoot to kill

Tim Owen, QC, from Matrix Chambers, explains the penalties that police officers face when they open fire on suspects. Mr Owen acted for the family of Harry Stanley, a man shot dead by the Metropolitan Police in 1999, who mistook a table leg he was carrying for a gun



Under the normal rules of engagement, when can police open fire on suspects?

Where an officer uses lethal force against a suspect he will be guilty of murder unless he can rely on the statutory defence in section 3 of the Criminal Law Act 1977 which permits the use of "such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or a suspected offender".

Reasonable force can be used in self defence or defence of another. That defence must be disproved by the prosecution before an officer could be guilty of murder. Considerable leeway is given to the fact that an officer may have to make a split second judgment. An honest but mistaken belief that it is necessary to fire does not deprive the officer of the defence.

Thus, in any given case there will be two questions to be resolved.

(1) Did the officer honestly believe or may he honestly have believed that it was necessary to defend himself or another?

(2) If so, and taking the circumstances and the danger as the officer honestly believed them to be, was the amount of force which he used "reasonable"?

Also relevant is Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which declares everyone's right to life but makes an exception when deprivation of life results from the use of force by a state agent (such as a police officer) which is "no more than absolutely necessaryÂ…in defence of any person from unlawful violence".


Who is in charge of situations like these?

Each firearms incident is different and will involve varying degrees of involvement by senior officers exercising operational control over a firearms unit.

Ultimately, however, each officer who discharges his weapon remains individually responsible for his actions under the criminal law of homicide and he or she must be able to justify the decision to fire by reference to the principles of self defence or the prevention of crime.

Where a firearms incident is incompetently managed, however, and results in an unjustified use of deadly force then officers other than the one who actually fired may be criminally liable for the crime of gross negligence manslaughter.




How does a "shoot to kill" policy for suspected suicide bombers fit into the law?

No so-called "shoot to kill" policy can displace the criminal law principles of self-defence/prevention of crime or the European Convention principle that lethal force must be shown to be no more than is absolutely necessary.

Plainly, a new threat may lawfully give rise to new tactics to respond to it, but any fresh guidance or policy which had the effect of inciting or encouraging firearms officers to use lethal force other than in accordance with the principle of "absolute necessity" would be unlawful.

How do inquiries into police firearms deaths work?

Any incident involving the shooting of a member of the public by a firearms officer must be reported to the Independent Police Complaints Commission who must conduct a prompt investigation which satisfies the requirements of independence demanded by the European Convention on Human Rights.

This means that the IPCC must involve an external police force in the investigative work while retaining at all times complete control over the progress and conduct of the investigation.

Any interference at any stage of the investigation (such as delaying or obstructing the IPCC's investigative role) would constitute a breach of Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights. Where prima facie evidence of a crime emerges, the IPCC passes the results of its work to the Crown Prosecution Service for a decision to be made about criminal charges.

Has the Independent Police Complaints Commission shown itself to be sufficiently independent?

The IPCC has only been in existence since 1st April 2004, but it has generally been welcomed as providing greater levels of competence and independence than its predecessor, the Police Complaints Commission. Certainly many of the commmissioners have great knowledge and experience of cases which involve striking a balance between individual human rights and public safety.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 11:14 pm
Quote:
The unanswered questions

* If the CCTV cameras showed Mr de Menezes using his Oyster card to open the ticket barrier, why did police sources suggest he vaulted it?

* Were cameras trained on the platform in full working order? Police and Tube sources contradict each other.

* How could all four cameras around the platform have failed at the same time?

* If the cameras had failed, why did the station log book contain no details of the fault?

* Why had CCTV onboard the train been removed?
Source
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 12:03 am
Sir Ian Blair told a series of untruths at a press conference, and the police allowed them to stand, even though they knew they were wrong. His team fed him wrong information.

So Sir Ian should now resign, because he was responsible for that.

I think the shooters should stand trial for murder.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 02:32 am
McTag I think you might find the Blair press conference will shake itself out. He has no obvious need to resign at this stage.

As for the shooting - the CPS will make that decision of course based on all the evidence.

Walter thanks for the info from Owen QC, it helps make my point exactly, it's good to read something sensible about this mess for a change.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 05:41 am
Either Blair resigns (falling on his sword), he fires a lot of people - or the whole mess gets worse.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 05:47 am
I think there is a need for him to resign, because

His men fed him wrong information
They knew it was wrong, then or shortly after

So either Sir Ian was left high and dry by his own staff, or he himself was involved in an attempt to distort the evidence to make his men's actions look better.

Either way, his position is untenable.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 06:13 am
All that would be denial of natural justice. All this is speculation. Add to that the leaks from the IPCC and it becomes murky. Natural justice requires evidence and a chance to confront accusations.

Best to let the evidence - note "evidence" - come out and then go looking for those who are culpable. I have no problem with that, I just think it's best to hear all the evidence first. Let's be fair.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 07:11 am
London Police Modify Story

Quote:
London Police Modify Story
Brazilian Was Not Provocative

By Mary Jordan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, August 23, 2005; Page A08

LONDON, Aug. 22 -- Scotland Yard acknowledged Monday that Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian electrician mistaken for a suicide bomber, had done nothing unusual before he was shot after entering the London subway last month. Police said Menezes used a ticket to enter and had not jumped a turnstile, and they said he was not wearing a padded jacket that could have concealed a bomb.

That version of events, recounted by police in a written statement, was significant because it was similar to a widely publicized report leaked last week about the killing of Menezes, 27. The report, which followed an independent investigation, had contradicted an official explanation of why police shot Menezes seven times in the head on July 22.


Menezes was killed a day after bombs planted by four attackers on three subway trains and a bus failed to detonate. That attempt came two weeks after July 7 attacks on subway trains and a bus killed 56 people, including the four presumed bombers, and injured 700 others.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 07:25 am
If anyone is charged over this I can see mistrial after mistrial after mistrial. But perhaps that's the purpose of these repeated press releases. Maybe I'm not Machiavellian enough. Silly me, I thought the facts might be held back until a decision was made about whether or not to prosecute for murder or manslaughter and then to go to trial. With a jury. A jury consisting of people who hadn't formed an opinion based on what they had read, seen, discussed or encountered on an internet forum. Looks like a fair trial, if there is going to be one, is not going to happen. In which case there could be no successful prosecution....

....damnit I'm slow.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 07:35 am
I just can't figure out--why the overkill on a guy who didn't do anything unusual?
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 07:46 am
Lash wrote:
I just can't figure out--why the overkill on a guy who didn't do anything unusual?


It's been said - it is entirely possible it's a SNAFU. Again going back to my initial comments, it could be total cock-up.

I'm reading some stuff that suggests that he was somehow culpable for being an illegal immigrant and at the last minute not complying. For mine that's crap. I suspect - yes I'm speculating! - that this poor bloke was killed as a result of a total cock-up. The stuff about illegal immigrant is hogwash. So what? If anyone is putting that out to muddy the waters then that's just garbage.

But I also rail against the theories that this is an example of how suspected terrorists will be dealt with in the UK - killed without compunction. That won't happen, well not unless the UK somehow turned into Uncle Joe Stalin's USSR overnight.

Overkill on a bloke who did nothing unusual? No obvious reason to kill the poor bastard? The answer is cock-up/SNAFU.

But then I'm speculating.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 08:08 am
I think it likely that those jokers just got too pumped up, and went over the edge in an excess of zeal and uniformed paranoia. One thing seems certain to me, the officers involved have got to be suffering torments of personal anguish, and are going to have severe mental health problems for a long time to come.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 08:43 am
I think the last two posters are correct.

I also think blame must be laid, and the sooner we can have a proper enquiry, the better. The gun squad were out of control, and there was a major operational cock-up. The details of that should now be investigated.
(Referring to a "gun squad" may sound odd, but British police do not normally carry firearms. They call for an armed response unit when required. This procedure evidently went badly wrong this time)

I am less concerned about the anguish of the police officers responsible, however, than that of the victim's family.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 10:07 am
gf,

In your most recent post you mention press releases, internet forums, jury trials.

What role do you give to the press?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 10:10 am
Does Britain have jury trials?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 10:21 am
nimh wrote:
Does Britain have jury trials?


A joke I suppose? Rolling Eyes

All criminal trials here are heard by judge & jury. (except in some cases involving Northern Ireland, and that because of witness and jury intimidation problems)
0 Replies
 
 

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