6
   

What was Trump doing in the Middle East?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2020 01:47 am
@JGoldman10,
JGoldman10 wrote:

Hi. I have been busy lately as of the time of the making of this thread. I haven't been following the news and current events all that closely, but I would like to know, what was President Trump doing in the Middle East?


After five pages of responses would you say that all your questions have been answered?
0 Replies
 
neptuneblue
 
  3  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2020 06:01 am
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:

Quote:
We don't need to get into how you present your opinion as bull ****. A story for another day.

Someone has lost the argument and is crabby.


I haven't lost anything, not even a minute of sleep.

Israel will never agree to a 2 state union. They have had plenty of time and chances to do so and reject it every time. The Palestinians will never agree to give up their land. That is THEIR land and killing & starving them out has not worked and is wrong. These are the truths we're working with.

Kushner is not a negotiator, he didn't bring anything new to the table. It was ineffective and showed how inexperienced he is with ME policy.

So, what is Trump doing in the Middle East?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

But keep applauding nothingness, That's the Trumper way.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2020 06:37 am
@neptuneblue,
Wrong again. Israel has agreed to a two-state solution every single time that it has been proposed.

The land also belongs to Israel. DNA, history, and archaeology all say that Zionists are the original indigenous population of the West Bank area.

Your claim about truths is preposterous. There is nothing even remotely truthful about what you are saying.

If Palestinians reject this opportunity for peace, they will see the West Bank slip further and further out of their grasp.

Who here is applauding? I'll applaud if Israel starts deporting Palestinians from Area B to the Gaza Strip where they belong.
neptuneblue
 
  4  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2020 06:55 am
@oralloy,
You mean if the Palestinians give up everything. It's not going to happen.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2020 07:04 am
@neptuneblue,
Living peacefully in their own country next to Israel is hardly giving up everything.
neptuneblue
 
  4  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2020 07:15 am
@oralloy,
Israel will never agree to a 2 state country. It's never going to happen.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2020 07:17 am
@neptuneblue,
Wrong again. Israel has agreed to the two-state solution every single time that it has been proposed.

Your terminology is weird. The term is two-state solution. It is two independent countries living side by side.

It's sort of like how Canada and the US are two independent countries living side by side.
neptuneblue
 
  3  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2020 07:26 am
@oralloy,
Israel will NEVER give up the land. They could have done it by now but haven't. You are chasing your own tail.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2020 07:28 am
@neptuneblue,
Wrong again. Israel has repeatedly offered the Palestinians a two-state solution based on 1967 borders in exchange for peace.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2020 01:57 pm
@neptuneblue,
Quote:
Israel will NEVER give up the land.

Why should they?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2020 12:19 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
No. Your claims about international law are completely untrue. You should familiarize yourself with UN Security Council Resolution 242.

In particular this part:
Quote:

1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

Quote:

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

https://unispal.un.org/dpa/dpr/unispal.nsf/0/7d35e1f729df491c85256ee700686136

Nice selective citing. You failed to include the first principle that goes hand in hand with the second that you mentioned:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;


oralloy wrote:

You should also read the UN Charter, particularly this part of Article 2:
Quote:

4. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

https://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.html


So Israel does have the right to exist under international law.

Try reading United Nations General Assembly Resolution 237 in light of the UN Charter article that you cite regarding "inconsistencies with the Purposes of the United Nations":

1. Calls upon the Government of Israel to ensure the safety, welfare and security of the inhabitants of the areas where military operations have taken place and to facilitate the return of those inhabitants who have fled the areas since the outbreak of hostilities ;

This was written in light of the Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 49: Deportations, transfers, evacuations:

Article 49. Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Given the fact that Israel bases its very existence on these travesties, Israel does not have the right to exist.

oralloy wrote:

You are similarly ignorant of DNA, history, and archaeology. There is clear evidence that Zionists are the original indigenous population of the West Bank area.

As one example of this:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html

You are ignorant of the more recent genetic studies, this from 2013:

Quote:
A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages

Abstract

The origins of Ashkenazi Jews remain highly controversial. Like Judaism, mitochondrial DNA is passed along the maternal line. Its variation in the Ashkenazim is highly distinctive, with four major and numerous minor founders. However, due to their rarity in the general population, these founders have been difficult to trace to a source. Here we show that all four major founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and provide the foundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fncomms3543/MediaObjects/41467_2013_Article_BFncomms3543_Fig10_HTML.jpg?as=webp

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543


oralloy wrote:

And no, "Land for Peace" does not ask Israel to give up land to someone who refuses to make peace. If Israel will never see peace, then Palestinians will never be given any land outside the Gaza Strip.

Get it straight. It's not about "Land for Peace" it's about the Zionists complying with their obligations in regard to the Palestinians Right of Return. Without it the Zionists will never see the peace they claim to desire.

oralloy wrote:

Calling them Gazans is no delusion if the Gaza Strip is the only land that they will ever have.

What's delusional is your scenario.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2020 12:29 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Without it the Zionists will never see the peace they claim to desire.

They desire it but also know Islam will never allow it. This is a religious war and always has been.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2020 01:00 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Nice selective citing. You failed to include the first principle that goes hand in hand with the second that you mentioned:

The other part of the resolution is not in dispute. Israel was willing to do their part and withdraw. That's what "land for peace" and the "two-state solution" were.

The only reason why it didn't happen is because the Palestinians refused to do their part and make peace with Israel as international law required of them.


InfraBlue wrote:
Try reading United Nations General Assembly Resolution 237 in light of the UN Charter article that you cite regarding "inconsistencies with the Purposes of the United Nations":

Whatever Palestinians fled the 1967 war would have been able to return had the Palestinians agreed to a two-state solution.

The only reason why those Palestinians will be forever denied the ability to return home after the 1967 war is because of their own war crimes in denying Israel's right to exist.


InfraBlue wrote:
You are ignorant of the more recent genetic studies, this from 2013:

That is incorrect. I am well aware of the fact that women married into Jewish families and brought in an influx of non-Jewish DNA. This was an inevitable consequence to having been expelled from their homeland and having to live in foreign territory.

Having someone marry into their family does not change the reality that these families are the original indigenous population of the West Bank area.


InfraBlue wrote:
Get it straight. It's not about "Land for Peace" it's about the Zionists complying with their obligations in regard to the Palestinians Right of Return.

No, it was about land for peace. And by refusing peace, the Palestinians have forfeited the West Bank.


InfraBlue wrote:
Without it the Zionists will never see the peace they claim to desire.

Without that peace, Israel gets to keep the entire West Bank for themselves.


InfraBlue wrote:
What's delusional is your scenario.

Hardly delusional. The Palestinians will never have any land beyond the Gaza Strip unless they agree to make peace with Israel.

And since they refuse to ever make peace, Gazans they now are.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2020 03:15 pm
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:

Quote:
Without it the Zionists will never see the peace they claim to desire.

They desire it but also know Islam will never allow it. This is a religious war and always has been.

It's been a conflict about land and self-determination therein. Not all Palestinians are Muslim.
InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2020 03:39 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Nice selective citing. You failed to include the first principle that goes hand in hand with the second that you mentioned:

The other part of the resolution is not in dispute.

Says you.

oralloy wrote:
Israel was willing to do their part and withdraw. That's what "land for peace" and the "two-state solution" were.

The only reason why it didn't happen is because the Palestinians refused to do their part and make peace with Israel as international law required of them.

International law requires Israel to comply with the Palestinians' Right of Return.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Try reading United Nations General Assembly Resolution 237 in light of the UN Charter article that you cite regarding "inconsistencies with the Purposes of the United Nations":

Whatever Palestinians fled the 1967 war would have been able to return had the Palestinians agreed to a two-state solution.

It has left the matter of Israel's oppression of the Palestinians unredressed.

oralloy wrote:

The only reason why those Palestinians will be forever denied the ability to return home after the 1967 war is because of their own war crimes in denying Israel's right to exist.

Israel doesn't have a right to exist.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
You are ignorant of the more recent genetic studies, this from 2013:

That is incorrect. I am well aware of the fact that women married into Jewish families and brought in an influx of non-Jewish DNA. This was an inevitable consequence to having been expelled from their homeland and having to live in foreign territory.

Having someone marry into their family does not change the reality that these families are the original indigenous population of the West Bank area.

So then you're playing dumb. You're completely and utterly wrong, nonetheless. There is no such thing as "Jewish DNA." These families originated in areas outside of Palestine.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Get it straight. It's not about "Land for Peace" it's about the Zionists complying with their obligations in regard to the Palestinians Right of Return.

No, it was about land for peace. And by refusing peace, the Palestinians have forfeited the West Bank.

No. It's about the Zionists complying with their obligations in regard to the Palestinians' Right of Return.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Without it the Zionists will never see the peace they claim to desire.

Without that peace, Israel gets to keep the entire West Bank for themselves.

There will be no peace for Israel given those circumstances.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
What's delusional is your scenario.

Hardly delusional. The Palestinians will never have any land beyond the Gaza Strip unless they agree to make peace with Israel.

And since they refuse to ever make peace, Gazans they now are.

Verily delusional.
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2020 03:40 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Not all Palestinians are Muslim.

Makes no difference, they have no say in anything.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2020 03:42 pm
@coldjoint,
Yes they do. Checkmate.
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2020 03:49 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Yes they do. Checkmate.

Check this. Show me what these non -Muslim Palestinians said. And why you think the Muslim Palestinians are listening.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2020 04:00 pm
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:

Quote:
Yes they do. Checkmate.

Check this. Show me what these non -Muslim Palestinians said. And why you think the Muslim Palestinians are listening.

Look up Ilan Halevi, anti-Zionist Ashkenazi member of the PLO, Kasparov. The Palestinians listened to him. Three strikes, you're out.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2020 04:14 pm
@InfraBlue,

Quote:
Look up Ilan Halevi,

I will look nothing up. You said it, you prove it. Your posts prove nothing but your own arrogance.
 

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